Tertiumquid
Well-known member
Which is easier... to obey God or have faith in God?
Question for Lutherans
- Thread starter Tertiumquid
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BJ Bear
Well-known member
Writing only for myself, it looks like a trick question. How does one have one without the other?
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Or to put it another way, do you have a contact in mind?
Tertiumquid
Well-known member
A family member heard someone ask this question in a sermon recently, and I was curious as to a Lutheran perspective. I think the question can be answered a few different ways depending on presuppositions. For instance, the way you answered has the symbiotic connection- that to actually obey God, one would need to actually have a heart inclined to do so.
On the other hand, from a different perspective, someone with a heart already inclined to obey God may find it easier to simply follow black and white rules (do this and don't do that) rather than having faith in God's promises (especially during difficult times).
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Thanks. Now I am curious, what was the sermon text?
Tertiumquid
Well-known member
Hmm... I don't recall! Good question.
BJ Bear
Well-known member
Ok, thanks. The only thing I could think of was some kind of analogous thought to which is easier to say...?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Morning, BJ--I got a good laugh out of that response.
So--you are aware the Lutherans do separate out works from faith in obtaining eternal life? It's called faith alone theology.
dberrie2020
Super Member
Since God Himself confirmed Abraham received the promise because of his obedience--here:.....
Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
That begs the question--was that obedience integral to Abraham's faith--or was following those "black and white rules" separate from Abraham's faith?
BJ Bear
Well-known member
That is a false claim. As you have been made aware in the past from the Lutheran confessions they, following Scripture, distinguish between faith and works
Bonnie
Super Member
Neither--both are gifts of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Bonnie
Super Member
We don't separate faith from good works--we recognize that they are not the same thing and have a different place in salvation, but are nonetheless, connected. We recognize that a TRUE and LIVING faith always leads to doing good works. But they are done IN salvation, not FOR salvation--something works righteous groups ignore, or just do not understand.
dberrie2020
Super Member
LOL. Another good laugh. I'm making a false claim in faith alone theology separating faith from works in obtaining eternal life--and in the same breath--an admission you "distinguish between faith and works"? Is there a difference between separate and distinguish?
Of course Lutherans separate out works from faith in obtaining eternal life. That's the reason they label it "faith alone". If faith had something added to it--it wouldn't be "faith alone"--would it?
So--let's go through the elimination process to find who isn't being truthful--starting with a simple question:
What works do you add to faith in obtaining salvation?
dberrie2020
Super Member
O yes you do.
So--what works do you add to faith in obtaining eternal life?
Translation---there are no works added to faith in obtaining eternal life. It's a faith without works one obtains eternal life in faith alone theology.
Not in obtaining eternal life they aren't.
Translation--"true and living faith"--is a faith without works.
Bonnie--if a true and living faith LEADS to doing works--then it is a "true and living faith" before the works occur. That's a faith without works.
IOW--what the Biblical text labels as a faith which is dead--the Lutherans label as a "true and living faith":
James 2:26---King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Translated--it really is a faith without works in obtaining eternal life--and anyone who claims a faith without works is a dead faith--are part of a "works righteous groups".
Bonnie--were the Biblical writers part of "works righteous groups"?
Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
dberrie2020
Super Member
There is a point to be there also. The testimony of the Savior has those who are given gifts--judged according to what they do with those gifts--and that for the "joy of thy Lord"--or--"outer darkness":
Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Bonnie--just a notice here also--please do take note of the fact those who magnified their talents were labeled as "faithful". Which means--their works were considered an integral component of faith. But then--a faith without works is always dead faith--in obtaining eternal life.
Authentic Nouveau
Well-known member
"works righteous groups" are bad people?
Bonnie
Super Member
I never said that--but they are mistaken as to how we are saved. Did you not understand what I wrote in my post?
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dberrie2020
Super Member
According to some--not necessarily bad people--just those who God sends straight to hell.
I would still like a Lutheran to engage the question as to whether this is part of the "works righteous groups"?
Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.