Question for Trinitarians on John 20:28?

Now then, Jesus lived among his disciples for about 3 1/2 years and he spoke unto them and they also spoke to him and called him Lord (kurios) many times correct?

By the way, God made Jesus to be Lord and Messiah and therefore his being called "Lord" by no means makes him God, just in case you wanted to try and use that looney argument here.

Acts 2:36

New International Version

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

So here is the question, where other than by Thomas in John 20:28, was Jesus ever spoken to and addressed as being God by any of the disciples and being you insist that he was in John 20:28?

Also, if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "The Lord of me and The God of me" and which is how it reads in the original Greek, why didn't Thomas just say this instead, "The Lord God of me".

For if indeed he was speaking to only Jesus and not the Father God also who was dwelling within Jesus and as Jesus taught all his disciples in John 14:10, then it is really odd, that he would use the definite articles twice and once in front of the word Lord and then also in front of the word God and then also separate the two titles by the Greek equivalent of "and".
 
So here is the question, where other than by Thomas in John 20:28, was Jesus ever spoken to and addressed as being God by any of the disciples and being you insist that he was in John 20:28?
Also, if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "The Lord of me and The God of me" and which is how it reads in the original Greek, why didn't Thomas just say this instead, "The Lord God of me".
For if indeed he was speaking to only Jesus and not the Father God also who was dwelling within Jesus and as Jesus taught all his disciples in John 14:10, then it is really odd, that he would use the definite articles twice and once in front of the word Lord and then also in front of the word God and then also separate the two titles by the Greek equivalent of "and".
If you wish to make a grammatical argument please quote an accredited Koine Greek Lexicon. Everyone and their brother believes that they know how to correctly interpret Greek.
The question we must ask is not how we interpret scripture today but how did the former pagan gentile Christians, without any previous Jewish or Christian bias, understand it? They would understand it exactly as "the father of me Mat 7:21 and the mother of me and the brothers of me Mat 12;49
Mat 7:21 του πατρος μου
Mat 12:49 η μητηρ μου και οι αδελφοι μου​
 

Jewjitzu

Member
If you wish to make a grammatical argument please quote an accredited Koine Greek Lexicon. Everyone and their brother believes that they know how to correctly interpret Greek.
The question we must ask is not how we interpret scripture today but how did the former pagan gentile Christians, without any previous Jewish or Christian bias, understand it? They would understand it exactly as "the father of me Mat 7:21 and the mother of me and the brothers of me Mat 12;49

Mat 7:21 του πατρος μου

Mat 12:49 η μητηρ μου και οι αδελφοι μου
It doesn't matter how a pagan or Christian would understand it, but a religious Jew. Theos in the context of a human is just a servant, human, messenger, non-divine. Same with Kyrios.

Do you need examples?
 

CrowCross

Active member
Now then, Jesus lived among his disciples for about 3 1/2 years and he spoke unto them and they also spoke to him and called him Lord (kurios) many times correct?

By the way, God made Jesus to be Lord and Messiah and therefore his being called "Lord" by no means makes him God, just in case you wanted to try and use that looney argument here.

Acts 2:36​

New International Version​

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

So here is the question, where other than by Thomas in John 20:28, was Jesus ever spoken to and addressed as being God by any of the disciples and being you insist that he was in John 20:28?

Also, if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "The Lord of me and The God of me" and which is how it reads in the original Greek, why didn't Thomas just say this instead, "The Lord God of me".

For if indeed he was speaking to only Jesus and not the Father God also who was dwelling within Jesus and as Jesus taught all his disciples in John 14:10, then it is really odd, that he would use the definite articles twice and once in front of the word Lord and then also in front of the word God and then also separate the two titles by the Greek equivalent of "and".
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.

Do I really need to say anything more??????
 

Jewjitzu

Member
Jesus is God so I say upper case....what say you?
lower case. A true God has no other God. Nor prays to another.

What can you say?

In the beginning was the promise and the promise was with God, and the promise became god. The promise was in the beginning with God.

BTW, Jesus is nothing to me.
 
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CrowCross

Active member
lower case. A true God has no other God. Nor prays to another.

What can you say?

In the beginning was the promise and the promise was with God, and the promise became god. The promise was in the beginning with God.

BTW, Jesus is nothing to me.
The trinity can't talk to itself? Your religion seems strange.
 

If you wish to make a grammatical argument please quote an accredited Koine Greek Lexicon. Everyone and their brother believes that they know how to correctly interpret Greek.
The question we must ask is not how we interpret scripture today but how did the former pagan gentile Christians, without any previous Jewish or Christian bias, understand it? They would understand it exactly as "the father of me Mat 7:21 and the mother of me and the brothers of me Mat 12;49

Mat 7:21 του πατρος μου

Mat 12:49 η μητηρ μου και οι αδελφοι μου
What a total surprise it will be for you when you finally find out that your knowledge actually led you astray from the truth instead of leading you to the truth and like you also falsely believed it did.

I don't have a clue as to how you would think that Matthew 7:21 helps your case and being "the mother of Jesus was a separate person and being than the Father of Jesus and the brethren of Jesus and especially when what you believe about the father and son being the same exact being cannot be compared to what Jesus said in Matt 7:21 at all.


Sorry but with human beings, each person is a separate person and separate being from another and until you false trinity god who you claim to be one single being of three persons and yet Thomas addressed The Lord of him as being separate from The God of him by the use of the definite article for both Lord and God and also the Greek word "kai" or the English "and".

Then to top it off, there is not other instance where the disciples speaking directly to Jesus, ever called or addressed him as God.

Yet the Bible clearly tells us, "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be confirmed" and you only have one that you use for a proof text on that and that one is also interpreted by you incorrectly and as I have just shown you also.
 
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1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.

Do I really need to say anything more??????
Hey your user name reminds me of Revelation 19:17-18 and where you trins will get part of the reward coming to you at the end of the age.

I don't suppose you will ever learn that the Jesus who said this in John 17:3 "This is eternal life that they might know you (Father), The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent", is the same one who taught John and not the other way around and therefore ones understand of John has to fit what Jesus said instead of Jesus' words fitting what John said in John 1:1-18 like you try to do with them.

If your idea of John 1:1-18 contradicts Jesus' words in John 17:3, and they do, then you have a false idea about John 1:1-18 also and therefore you do also.

Therefore in answer to your question and upon that note, you shouldn't be saying anything at all period (see also James 3:1).

For every time you do, you are just going deeper and deeper into your responsibility for believing and teaching false doctrine then the time before that when you also said something.
 
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CrowCross

Active member
Hey your user name reminds me of Revelation 19:17-18 and where you trins will get part of the reward coming to you at the end of the age.

I don't suppose you will ever learn that the Jesus who said this in John 17:3 "This is eternal life that they might know you (Father), The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent", is the same one who taught John and not the other way around and therefore ones understand of John has to fit what Jesus said instead of Jesus' words fitting what John said in John 1:1-18 like you try to do with them.

If your idea of John 1:1-18 contradicts Jesus' words in John 17:3, and they do, then you have a false idea about John 1:1-18 also and therefore you do also.

Therefore in answer to your question and upon that note, you shouldn't be saying anything at all period (see also James 3:1).

For every time you do, you are just going deeper and deeper into your responsibility for believing and teaching false doctrine then the time before that when you also said something.
Why should i follow your false representation of Christ?

Jesus is God. Proof 1.

According to the OT God made the earth. 
Gen 1.1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Jeremiah 10:12
But God made the earth by his power, and he preserves it by his wisdom. With his own understanding he stretched out the heavens.

Psalm 89:11
The heavens are yours, and the earth is yours; everything in the world is yours--you created it all.



COL 1:16 
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.



JOH 1:10 
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.



HEB 1:2 
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.



Considering the OT verses say God created.....and the NT says Jesus created...Jesus MUST be God.
 

CrowCross

Active member
Yeah but here is a news flash for you, your flesh and your human spirit only equal one person and entity and not two persons in one entity.
God is three persons contained in one nature.

You having flesh and one spriit...simply shows it's possible.

Jesus is God. Proof 2



1Kings 8:39



Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)



!1 Kings says only Gods knows our hearts.



Mark 2:8



Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things?



If only God knows the hearts of people...and Jesus knew their hearts....Jesus must be God.
 
It doesn't matter how a pagan or Christian would understand it, but a religious Jew. Theos in the context of a human is just a servant, human, messenger, non-divine. Same with Kyrios.
Do you need examples?
Suppose I give you examples? How would former pagan gentile Christians, with no preexisting Jewish or Christians bias, in gentile cities/countries e.g. Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Corinth, Pergamum, Smyrna, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, Samaria etc. gentiles countries/cities have understood John 20:28?
 
Why should i follow your false representation of Christ?

Jesus is God. Proof 1.

According to the OT God made the earth. 
Gen 1.1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Jeremiah 10:12
But God made the earth by his power, and he preserves it by his wisdom. With his own understanding he stretched out the heavens.

Psalm 89:11
The heavens are yours, and the earth is yours; everything in the world is yours--you created it all.



COL 1:16 
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.



JOH 1:10 
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.



HEB 1:2 
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.



Considering the OT verses say God created.....and the NT says Jesus created...Jesus MUST be God.
Hey I don't care one way or the other what you follow, for I am kind of like Jonah was on that note.

However, unlike Nineveh who Jonah preached to, and who didn't know their right hand from the left about God, you don't have that excuse and in fact you don't have any excuse at all and that is why I don't care that you want to continue in following your false doctrines either and it is just that simple.

However I will keep expressing the truth about your passages just the same in order that what Jesus words "unto him who is given much, shall much be required" might be fulfilled regarding you at the end of this age.


All things were created in and through Jesus and the scripture never states that Jesus himself ever created even one thing.

All things being created in and through Jesus, simply refers to God creating them with Jesus as the central figure in his plan and purpose for them to be created and nothing more or less than this either.
 
God is three persons contained in one nature.

You having flesh and one spriit...simply shows it's possible.

Jesus is God. Proof 2



1Kings 8:39



Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)



!1 Kings says only Gods knows our hearts.



Mark 2:8



Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things?



If only God knows the hearts of people...and Jesus knew their hearts....Jesus must be God.
LOL! That proves no such thing, for Jesus was totally without sin and therefore able to receive far more in the word of knowledge than any other man ever born before or after him.

Furthermore, even Peter received a word of knowledge like this from God in Acts chapter 5 and I would suggest you read it again and he also did concerning Simone the Sorcerer as well.

Of course Jesus would have a much greater gift from God on this being he was totally pure and could hear God on many levels that none of us ever did or could either and therefore your argument on this as being a proof that Jesus is God is worthless, for Jesus himself also told us that he didn't know everything but that only the Father does in Matthew 24:36.
 
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CrowCross

Active member
Hey I don't care one way or the other what you follow, for I am kind of like Jonah was on that note.

However, unlike Nineveh who Jonah preached to, and who didn't know their right hand from the left about God, you don't have that excuse and in fact you don't have any excuse at all and that is why I don't care that you want to continue in following your false doctrines either and it is just that simple.

However I will keep expressing the truth about your passages just the same in order that what Jesus words "unto him who is given much, shall much be required" might be fulfilled regarding you at the end of this age.


All things were created in and through Jesus and the scripture never states that Jesus himself ever created even one thing.

All things being created in and through Jesus, simply refers to God creating them with Jesus as the central figure in his plan and purpose for them to be created and nothing more or less than this either.
If you want to follow a false Christ...do it. Like the mormons or JW's and some of the SDA...have at it.

Jesus is God. Proof 3



God forgives sins.



Isaiah 43:25



I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.



Mark 2:5-7



5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”



6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”



If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.
 
Jesus is God so I say upper case....what say you?

Nope


Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him (being he had no sin himself worthy of death).


36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

Nobody makes God either kurios or Yahweh, , for he is that by default being Yahweh God and therefore your doctrine on this is false like usual.
 
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