Question for Trinitarians on John 20:28?

If you want to follow a false Christ...do it. Like the mormons or JW's and some of the SDA...have at it.

Jesus is God. Proof 3



God forgives sins.



Isaiah 43:25



I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.



Mark 2:5-7



5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”



6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”



If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.
I get a kick out of you stumbling around with your ridiculous arguments, for you have your own version of the Mormon religion and their Book of Mormon, with the uninspired writings of "The Early Church Father's" and which is where you get most of your false doctrines also.

As for Jesus pronouncing God's authority in forgiveness, that is clearly explained by Jesus himself in the following two passages of scripture.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”



John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Nope


Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him (being he had no sin himself worthy of death).


36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

Nobody makes God either kurios or Yahweh, , for he is that by default being Yahweh God and therefore your doctrine on this is false like usual.
Jesus is God. Proof 4



In John 20:28 "doubting" Thomas after realizing who Jesus was in verse 27 proclaimed to Jesus..



My Lord and My God....and Jesus didn't correct Thomas.



Jesus didn't correct Thomas because Thomas spoke the truth to the face of Jesus.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
I get a kick out of you stumbling around with your ridiculous arguments, for you have your own version of the Mormon religion and their Book of Mormon, with the uninspired writings of "The Early Church Father's" and which is where you get most of your false doctrines also.

As for Jesus pronouncing God's authority in forgiveness, that is clearly explained by Jesus himself in the following two passages of scripture.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”


John 14:10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus is God. Proof 5



Speaking of Jesus:



Philippians 2:6



who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.



In the description of the kenosis of Jesus...Jesus is described as God.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
If you want to follow a false Christ...do it. Like the mormons or JW's and some of the SDA...have at it.

Jesus is God. Proof 3



God forgives sins.



Isaiah 43:25



I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.



Mark 2:5-7



5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”



6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”



If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.
Then we're all Gods because we forgive each other all of the time.
 
Jesus is God. Proof 5



Speaking of Jesus:



Philippians 2:6



who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.



In the description of the kenosis of Jesus...Jesus is described as God.
Philippians 2:5-8 doesn't say any such thing that Jesus was God or equal to God either but only that he began "huparchon" as a man with the name and title of Jesus Christ in the form "morphe" of God and then took no thought for a robbery to make himself equal unto God" but instead my himself a servant by choice.

For it was quite common for rulers of that time and having much less authority than Jesus and especially in the Roman Empire. to attempt to rob God of his glory as being God by claiming themselves to be gods or to be equal unto God and Caligula and Nero and Domitian were only a few of them who did this also. .
 
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Jesus is God. Proof 4



In John 20:28 "doubting" Thomas after realizing who Jesus was in verse 27 proclaimed to Jesus..



My Lord and My God....and Jesus didn't correct Thomas.



Jesus didn't correct Thomas because Thomas spoke the truth to the face of Jesus.
Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established and not only one crow, so suppose you show us where anyone else speaking to Jesus while he was with them, ever called him God and like you falsely believe that Thomas did here?

By the way, why did Thomas use the definite articles both for "The Lord of me" and also for "The God of me" if indeed he was only speaking to Jesus alone and not to another who was the Father God and whom in John 14:10, Jesus had taught Thomas, to be dwelling within Jesus and doing his works through him?

Why then didn't he just say, "The Lord God of me"?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Suppose I give you examples? How would former pagan gentile Christians, with no preexisting Jewish or Christians bias, in gentile cities/countries e.g. Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Corinth, Pergamum, Smyrna, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, Samaria etc. gentiles countries/cities have understood John 20:28?
Doesn't matter. All converts were initiated in Jewish law and thoughts. Any sense would make someone question the rationality of thinking someone human or created was divine.

A basic understanding of theos, kyrios, elohim, adon, goes a long way to deciphering things. Zero bias, just the plain facts. Are you saying the apostles were originally pagans?

That's why pagans must be taught the truth from those who received the oracles from God. What the early church fathers taught is of no consequence.
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
Philippians 2:5-8 doesn't say any such thing that Jesus was God or equal to God either but only that he began "huparchon" as a man with the name and title of Jesus Christ in the form "morphe" of God and then took no thought for a robbery to make himself equal unto God" but instead my himself a servant by choice.

For it was quite common for rulers of that time and having much less authority than Jesus and especially in the Roman Empire. to attempt to rob God of his glory as being God by claiming themselves to be gods or to be equal unto God and Caligula and Nero and Domitian were only a few of them who did this also. .
I'm thinking you ought to re-read the verse.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established and not only one crow, so suppose you show us where anyone else speaking to Jesus while he was with them, ever called him God and like you falsely believe that Thomas did here?

By the way, why did Thomas use the definite articles both for "The Lord of me" and also for "The God of me" if indeed he was only speaking to Jesus alone and not to another who was the Father God and whom in John 14:10, Jesus had taught Thomas, to be dwelling within Jesus and doing his works through him?

Why then didn't he just say, "The Lord God of me"?
Thomas called Jeus God. If you want to deny that...have at it.

Jesus is God. Proof 6



Jesus was referred to as saying this in Revelation 22:13



I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.



...in other words...God.
 
Thomas called Jeus God. If you want to deny that...have at it.

Jesus is God. Proof 6



Jesus was referred to as saying this in Revelation 22:13



I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.



...in other words...God.
I do deny it because if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "the God of him" in that passage, we should expect that this would have happened elsewhere with the other disciples also speaking to him and calling him their God but there is not even one other passage where this occurred in the whole of the NT.

Also, Jesus shares the synonymous titles of "First and Last, Alpha and Omega and Beginning and End" with God the Father but not because he is also God but rather because he is the first and last as the Messiah alone and whereas God is the first and last who is God alone.

First and last is not a name or title exclusive to God alone but rather the context is what determines it means and the context of Revelation 1:17-18 is not revealing Jesus to be the first and last who is God but rather the first and last who is the Messiah with the keys of death and hell that he got from his own life, death and resurrection as the Messiah.

In Isaiah 44:6, God is using first and last to refer to himself as the only God but Jesus is not using it for that purpose in Rev. 1:17-18 and Paul's words in the scripture below proves this also.

Romans 1:20-23​

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


God is immortal and in Revelation 1:17-18 Jesus very clearly uses the words "first and last" to refer to himself as a mortal human being who lived and died and rose again to receive the keys of death and hell in order to see men free from them as the Only Messiah sent by God to do so.

Romans 1:23 therefore will be the judge of every one of you trinitarians on the day of judgment unless you repent and turn from this false doctrine that Jesus is God, for you have done exactly what Paul mentions in Romans 1:20-23 with God's nature and the nature of Christ Jesus whom he sent.
 
I'm thinking you ought to re-read the verse.
Sorry but I already am fully aware of what the verse says and what it doesn't say.

For starters, "who existing "huparchon in the form", that Greek word huparchon is used 60 times in the NT and is never used of God except when calling him the Lord of heaven and earth in Acts 17:24.

Acts 17:24​

New International Version​

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it, is "huparchon" the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.

Notice, that the verse first tells us that God made heaven and earth before that word "huparchon" is used to describe God as the Lord of heaven and earth and so as I said and will again, that word "huparchon" is never used of anything eternal as in regards to its actual substance.

So then, the reason why it is used here in Acts 17:24 and in no other place for God, is because God only BEGAN "huparchon" to be the Lord of heaven and earth after he first created the heaven and earth in order to begin "huparchon" to be the Lord over it and just like you read right in the verse also.


For that word "huparhon", is always used in all 60 occurrences in the NT, of things that have a beginning whether it be possessions or prosperities or whatever else it is used to describe and it never refers to things eternal and that is why it is never used of God to describe his eternal existence.
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
I do deny it because if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "the God of him" in that passage, we should expect that this would have happened elsewhere with the other disciples also speaking to him and calling him their God but there is not even one other passage where this occurred in the whole of the NT.

Also, Jesus shares the synonymous titles of "First and Last, Alpha and Omega and Beginning and End" with God the Father but not because he is also God but rather because he is the first and last as the Messiah alone and whereas God is the first and last who is God alone.

First and last is not a name or title exclusive to God alone but rather the context is what determines it means and the context of Revelation 1:17-18 is not revealing Jesus to be the first and last who is God but rather the first and last who is the Messiah with the keys of death and hell that he got from his own life, death and resurrection as the Messiah.

In Isaiah 44:6, God is using first and last to refer to himself as the only God but Jesus is not using it for that purpose in Rev. 1:17-18 and Paul's words in the scripture below proves this also.

Romans 1:20-23​

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


God is immortal and in Revelation 1:17-18 Jesus very clearly uses the words "first and last" to refer to himself as a mortal human being who lived and died and rose again to receive the keys of death and hell in order to see men free from them as the Only Messiah sent by God to do so.

Romans 1:23 therefore will be the judge of every one of you trinitarians on the day of judgment unless you repent and turn from this false doctrine that Jesus is God, for you have done exactly what Paul mentions in Romans 1:20-23 with God's nature and the nature of Christ Jesus whom he sent.
Jesus is God. Proof 7



Because Jesus claimed to be God the Jews said Jesus was guilty of being one

who blasphemes the name of the LORD



John 19:7....



The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."



The law the Jews were referring to was Lev. 14:7



Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.



The Jews of that time knew Jesus was making himself out to be God.



In the New Testament, the title "Son of God" is applied to Jesus on many occasions. It is often used to refer to his divinity,
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Sorry but I already am fully aware of what the verse says and what it doesn't say.

For starters, "who existing "huparchon in the form", that Greek word huparchon is used 60 times in the NT and is never used of God except when calling him the Lord of heaven and earth in Acts 17:24.

Acts 17:24​

New International Version​

Then you would have to admitt Jesus wasn't a servant. You've lost this argument and don't even know it.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Jesus is God. Proof 7



Because Jesus claimed to be God the Jews said Jesus was guilty of being one

who blasphemes the name of the LORD



John 19:7....



The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."



The law the Jews were referring to was Lev. 14:7



Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.



The Jews of that time knew Jesus was making himself out to be God.



In the New Testament, the title "Son of God" is applied to Jesus on many occasions. It is often used to refer to his divinity,
The name son of God is not a divine reference. It wasn't in the law you referenced and angels and Jews are called sons as well.

The Jews believed Jesus was bringing shame to God for claiming what he wasn't, messiah.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
The name son of God is not a divine reference. It wasn't in the law you referenced and angels and Jews are called sons as well.

The Jews believed Jesus was bringing shame to God for claiming what he wasn't, messiah.


Jesus is God proof 9





Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.



This verse is talking about God.



Isaiah 52:13 Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted.



This verse is about God being a servant. About God becoming a man. About God stepping out of His high and lifted up position and then having the high and lifted up position reestablished.



The verse is about Jesus, the Word, who was with God and was equal to God taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, Jesus the God man humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name.



Jesus, God the Son in the servant role glorified God the Father...



John 17:4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5" Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.



Jesus the servant, God the servant, stepped out of His glory that He had with the Father and died as a substitute atonement for many...Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors....and was later exalted, high and lifted up, Glory restored.
 
Then you would have to admitt Jesus wasn't a servant. You've lost this argument and don't even know it.
He was sent to do God's will and therefore he was God's servant right from the beginning

However he wasn't the servant of man and that is why when Paul says he took the form of a servant, that is when he was made by doing so in the likeness of men.

He became obedient to God in death for the sake of other men as a servant of God for their sakes and you can see this when he washed the feet of the disciples and he said to them, "you call me Lord and master and you are right, for that is what I am, therefore if I being your Lord and master wash your feet, therefore you ought also to wash one another's feet also"

There you have Paul's very words in Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be also in you which was in Christ Jesus".

However being made in the likeness "homoiomai" of men, doesn't at all mean that Paul was saying that he became a man in that passage, for Paul was never speaking of him as any thing other than a man in regards to his nature or ontology.

However, his beginning "huparchon" in the form of God, has nothings so much to do with his ontology or nature but rather has to do with the authority given unto him right at his birth by God.

For if that is what Paul wanted to say, he wouldn't have even used the word "homoiomai" "likeness" but instead he would have just stated that he made "ginomai" himself a man "anthropos" and which very clearly reveals you ignorance about this passage.

Again, "huperchon" never refers to anything eternal but always refers to what has a beginning and that is why it is never used of God to express his nature or substance as being eternal, because it doesn't mean that.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
He was sent to do God's will and therefore he was God's servant right from the beginning

However he wasn't the servant of man and that is why when Paul says he took the form of a servant, that is when he was made by doing so in the likeness of men.

He became obedient to God in death for the sake of other men as a servant of God for their sakes and you can see this when he washed the feet of the disciples and he said to them, "you call me Lord and master and you are right, for that is what I am, therefore if I being your Lord and master wash your feet, therefore you ought also to wash one another's feet also"

There you have Paul's very words in Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be also in you which was in Christ Jesus".

However being made in the likeness "homoiomai" of men, doesn't at all mean that Paul was saying that he became a man in that passage, for Paul was never speaking of him as any thing other than a man in regards to his nature or ontology.

However, his beginning "huparchon" in the form of God, has nothings so much to do with his ontology or nature but rather has to do with the authority given unto him right at his birth by God.

For if that is what Paul wanted to say, he wouldn't have even used the word "homoiomai" "likeness" but instead he would have just stated that he made "ginomai" himself a man "anthropos" and which very clearly reveals you ignorance about this passage.

Again, "huperchon" never refers to anything eternal but always refers to what has a beginning and that is why it is never used of God to express his nature or substance as being eternal, because it doesn't mean that.
Paul said Jesus took the FORM of a servant...which means Jesus was a servant.
Paul earlier said Jesus was the FORM of God....same word...which means Jesus was God.

Jesus is God proof 10

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
 
Jesus is God. Proof 7



Because Jesus claimed to be God the Jews said Jesus was guilty of being one

who blasphemes the name of the LORD



John 19:7....



The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."



The law the Jews were referring to was Lev. 14:7



Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.



The Jews of that time knew Jesus was making himself out to be God.



In the New Testament, the title "Son of God" is applied to Jesus on many occasions. It is often used to refer to his divinity,
Where did Jesus claim to be God dude, you are going to have to back that up with scripture and if you want to say he did this by calling God his Father and himself God's Son, I will take you to Psalm 2:7 where God first called David his Son in the singular and then also David's Son Solomon after him and as per 2 Samuel 7:14.

Only after David and Solomon did these passages apply to Jesus in Hebrew 1:5 and which reveals that being called God's Son is never meant to be taken as literal but rather as referring to one who is appointed to become God's heir and therefore the idiom "Son of God" refers to God's human heir and the Jews actually knew this also.

For nowhere in their OT did it ever refer to anything other than that and therefore when you attempt to teach people that Jews understood correctly that when Jesus called God his Father and himself God's Son, he was making himself equal unto God, you are teaching a lie period.

For the Jews could have never gotten that from their own OT scriptures, for it was never revealed to mean a literal Son of God but only a human heir to the throne of God instead.


However, the Jews hated Jesus for exposing them as hypocrites in the presences of all of the people and therefore they didn't want Jesus to be that King that would fulfill the complete promise made to David and Israel and so with the help of their Father the Devil, they twisted their own scripture in order to false accuse Jesus and have him murdered.
 

Stephen

Active member
If you want to follow a false Christ...do it. Like the mormons or JW's and some of the SDA...have at it.

Jesus is God. Proof 3



God forgives sins.



Isaiah 43:25

I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, 
And I will not remember your sins.

Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”


If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.

Or we could look at the parallel account in Matthew 9:
6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." So he said to the paralyzed man, "Get up, take your mat and go home." 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.


God (a person) gave Jesus (a person) who is identified as a man the authority to forgive sins.

This event is lock solid proof that Jesus isn't God.
 
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