Question for Trinitarians on John 20:28?

Tanachreader

Active member
Now then, Jesus lived among his disciples for about 3 1/2 years and he spoke unto them and they also spoke to him and called him Lord (kurios) many times correct?

By the way, God made Jesus to be Lord and Messiah and therefore his being called "Lord" by no means makes him God, just in case you wanted to try and use that looney argument here.

Acts 2:36​

New International Version​

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

So here is the question, where other than by Thomas in John 20:28, was Jesus ever spoken to and addressed as being God by any of the disciples and being you insist that he was in John 20:28?

Also, if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "The Lord of me and The God of me" and which is how it reads in the original Greek, why didn't Thomas just say this instead, "The Lord God of me".

For if indeed he was speaking to only Jesus and not the Father God also who was dwelling within Jesus and as Jesus taught all his disciples in John 14:10, then it is really odd, that he would use the definite articles twice and once in front of the word Lord and then also in front of the word God and then also separate the two titles by the Greek equivalent of "and".

What does the Bible mean when it says that Jesus was made Lord and Christ?​

How could Jesus be made Lord if He was already the Lord? In other words, Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9). Therefore, He already is Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Jesus was not made Lord in the sense of He was made into something He was not already. Instead, it is dealing with His status as a man made under the law (Gal. 4:4), in a lower position (Luke 14:28). In that sense, He was made Lord and Christ by God the Father.
...

Also John said He is God.
John chapt 1
Elisabeth said He was her Lord in Mary’s womb.
Then Mary say’s her spirit rejoiced: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
I agree with your proofs that Jesus is GOD...
1) Considering the OT verses say God created.....and the NT says Jesus created...Jesus MUST be God.
2) If only God knows the hearts of people...and Jesus knew their hearts....Jesus must be God.
3) If Jesus forgives sin...then Jesus must be God.
4) Thomas said My Lord and My God....and Jesus didn't correct Thomas.
5) In the description of the kenosis of Jesus...Jesus is described as God.
6) Jesus said I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End...in other words...God.
7) Because Jesus claimed to be God the Jews said Jesus was guilty of being one.
9) This verse is about God being a servant. About God becoming a man. About God stepping out of His high and lifted up position and then having the high and lifted up position reestablished.
10) John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Yes, Jesus is God..you're showing hope.

26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

....are you going to argue the "us" is angels? No, the "us"...our... hints at the Trinity.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
2) Jesus is GOD incarnate (My belief)
Yes, Jesus is God..always was and never wasn't.

The question is...during His baptism...was Jesus a ventriloquist and threw his voice towards heaven when God the Father spoke?

I've heard the arguments over the years...your argument fails.

How about when Steven was being killed and he looked up and saw both of them standing together? There's a lot of scripture you need to explain away.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member

What does the Bible mean when it says that Jesus was made Lord and Christ?​

How could Jesus be made Lord if He was already the Lord? In other words, Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9). Therefore, He already is Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Jesus was not made Lord in the sense of He was made into something He was not already. Instead, it is dealing with His status as a man made under the law (Gal. 4:4), in a lower position (Luke 14:28). In that sense, He was made Lord and Christ by God the Father.
...

Also John said He is God.
John chapt 1
Elisabeth said He was her Lord in Mary’s womb.
Then Mary say’s her spirit rejoiced: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
I am not interested in any your conniving craftiness and manipulation of what Peter clearly said in Acts 2:22-36, or of any other scriptures you do it with in order to make it fit your already preconceived false doctrines that you are brainwashed with either.

However, by all means make my day and continue in it yourself if you are so pleased to do it and I will meet up with you at the GWT and watch with my own eyes what becomes of you because of it.

For I have already had better than thirty years myself of attempting to twist the many scriptures in the Bible that contradicted and didn't fit with my trinity and Jesus as God doctrines, in order to convince myself that they were still true but I couldn't do it and thanks be to God for that also, otherwise I might still be in the condition you are with it.

However, I was truly saved on the night that I was saved and therefore God eventually opened my eyes to the truth, for there is no one who is saved that isn't saved through a completely apostate version of God and Christ but it is only what is revealed to the heart by God that saves us even though we might have believed many false things with our minds.


If someone is truly saved from what God revealed unto them in the heart, they will eventually come out of Mystery Babylon that you and your trin buddies are still in bondage to and if they aren't, they wont but will end up receiving of her coming plagues instead, see Revelation 18:4.


By the way, Jesus wasn't made Lord after he was born but he was made Lord when God created his human seed to replace that of Adam in heaven and therefore he was made lord by God's appointment and anointing even before the seed was implanted by the Holy Spirit into the womb of Mary.

After this, God required that he maintain what he had been given by God and through his perfect sinless obedience and through resisting every temptation that all men experience also and just like the Bible clearly reveals.


John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also"

John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".


John 17:3, "This is eternal life, that they might know you (Father), The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent".

The above words were all spoken by Jesus himself, so you will either believe and obey them and stop trying to manipulate their clear meaning in order to fit your false doctrines or they will be your judge on that day and it is your choice which way you will have it dude.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member

What does the Bible mean when it says that Jesus was made Lord and Christ?​

How could Jesus be made Lord if He was already the Lord? In other words, Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9). Therefore, He already is Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Jesus was not made Lord in the sense of He was made into something He was not already. Instead, it is dealing with His status as a man made under the law (Gal. 4:4), in a lower position (Luke 14:28). In that sense, He was made Lord and Christ by God the Father.
...

Also John said He is God.
John chapt 1
Elisabeth said He was her Lord in Mary’s womb.
Then Mary say’s her spirit rejoiced: “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Acts 2:36 means just exactly what Peter said and it doesn't require any commentary by you in order to twist what it means whatsoever and so you best acknowledge it also.

Therefore, the Bible means exactly what was clearly stated by Peter about it and with no need to add any of our human reasoning to it either.


By the way, let me know when you come up with another witness in scripture of when Jesus was still with his disciples in the flesh, that any of them ever once called him God when addressing him and like you falsely believe Thomas did in John 20:28 and because of your obvious spiritual ignorance about it and the same as you have with all scriptures likewise.
 
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OldShepherd

Active member
Acts 2:36 means just exactly what Peter said and it doesn't require any commentary by you in order to twist what it means whatsoever and so you best acknowledge it also.
By the way, let me know when you come up with another witness in scripture of when Jesus was still with his disciples in the flesh, that any of them ever once called him God when addressing him and like you falsely believe Thomas did in John 20:28 and because of your obvious spiritual ignorance about it and the same as you have with all scriptures likewise.
Can you prove grammatically/lexically that Thomas was not addressing Jesus as God in John 20:28?
Meanwhile,
A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity. Chap. XVII
He shows that in the beginning the Word was, and that this Word was with the Father, and besides that the Word was God, and that all things were made by Him. Moreover, this “Word was made flesh and dwelt among us,” (Joh_1:14) - to wit, Christ the Son of God; whom both on receiving subsequently as man according to the flesh, and seeing before the foundation of the world to be the Word of God, and God, we reasonably, according to the instruction of the Old and New Testament, believe and hold to be as well God as man, Christ Jesus.

Alexander of Alexandria Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius.
4. But that the Son of God was not made “from things which are not,” and that there was no “time when He was not,”6 the evangelist John sufficiently shows, when he thus writes concerning Him: “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.” (Joh_1:18)
For he set forth His proper personality, saying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him; and with out Him was not anything made that was made.” (Joh_1:1-3)

Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John. Book I
42. And perhaps the former meaning is to be recognized in the words “The Logos was made flesh,” but the second in “The Logos was God.” We must accordingly look at what there is to be seen in human affairs between the saying, “The Word reason was made flesh” and “The Word was God.” When the Word was made flesh can we say that it was to some extent broken up and thinned out, and can we say that it recovered from that point onward till it became again what it was at first, God the Word, the Word with the Father; the Word whose glory John saw, the verily only-begotten, as from the Father.

Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John. Book II.
1. And perhaps it was because he saw some such order in the Logos, that John did not place the clause “The Word was God” before the clause “The Word was with God.” The series in which he places his different sentences does not prevent the force of each axiom from being separately and fully seen. One axiom is, “In the beginning was the Word,” a second, “The Word was with God,” and then comes, “And the Word was God.” The arrangement of the sentences might be thought to indicate an order; we have first “In the beginning was the Word,” then, “And the Word was with God,” and thirdly, “And the Word was God,” so that it might be seen that the Word being with God makes Him God.​
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Can you prove grammatically/lexically that Thomas was not addressing Jesus as God in John 20:28?
Meanwhile,

A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity. Chap. XVII

He shows that in the beginning the Word was, and that this Word was with the Father, and besides that the Word was God, and that all things were made by Him. Moreover, this “Word was made flesh and dwelt among us,” (Joh_1:14) - to wit, Christ the Son of God; whom both on receiving subsequently as man according to the flesh, and seeing before the foundation of the world to be the Word of God, and God, we reasonably, according to the instruction of the Old and New Testament, believe and hold to be as well God as man, Christ Jesus.


Alexander of Alexandria Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius.

4. But that the Son of God was not made “from things which are not,” and that there was no “time when He was not,”6 the evangelist John sufficiently shows, when he thus writes concerning Him: “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.” (Joh_1:18)

For he set forth His proper personality, saying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him; and with out Him was not anything made that was made.” (Joh_1:1-3)


Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John. Book I

42. And perhaps the former meaning is to be recognized in the words “The Logos was made flesh,” but the second in “The Logos was God.” We must accordingly look at what there is to be seen in human affairs between the saying, “The Word reason was made flesh” and “The Word was God.” When the Word was made flesh can we say that it was to some extent broken up and thinned out, and can we say that it recovered from that point onward till it became again what it was at first, God the Word, the Word with the Father; the Word whose glory John saw, the verily only-begotten, as from the Father.


Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John. Book II.

1. And perhaps it was because he saw some such order in the Logos, that John did not place the clause “The Word was God” before the clause “The Word was with God.” The series in which he places his different sentences does not prevent the force of each axiom from being separately and fully seen. One axiom is, “In the beginning was the Word,” a second, “The Word was with God,” and then comes, “And the Word was God.” The arrangement of the sentences might be thought to indicate an order; we have first “In the beginning was the Word,” then, “And the Word was with God,” and thirdly, “And the Word was God,” so that it might be seen that the Word being with God makes Him God.
You can't prove that he was calling Jesus as God and I am also not interested in what your cult's version of the Book of Mormon and which you call "The Early Church Father's" have to say about it either, for that is a bunch of human reasoning dung.

For they are not the true inspired early church fathers but rather only the authors of the NT are instead and they are the only church Fathers for the true church like it or not.

I don't have to prove it to you or anyone else and neither is that my business either but that belongs to God alone, but he has proven it to me and has made me a minister of the truth of it first to those who are appointed to be his true elect and then also for those who aren't so that on the day of judgement God can play back for them how many times they were told the truth and how many times they also rejected it.


That is the two fold nature of preaching and teaching the truth and just like 1 Peter 4:6 states also.

1 Peter 4:6​

New King James Version​

6 For this reason the gospel was preached and to those who are dead (in prison to sin and therefore spiritually dead and as each generation parallel's with the time of Noah also), that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but (or) live according to God in the spirit.
 
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OldShepherd

Active member
You can't prove that he was calling Jesus as God and I am also not interested in what your cult's version of the Book of Mormon and which you call "The Early Church Father's" have to say about it either, for that is a bunch of human reasoning dung.
For they are not the true inspired early church fathers but rather only the authors of the NT are instead and they are the only church Fathers for the true church like it or not.
I don't have to prove it to you or anyone else and neither is that my business either but that belongs to God alone, but he has proven it to me and has made me a minister of the truth of it first to those who are appointed to be his true elect and then also for those who aren't so that on the day of judgement God can play back for them how many times they were told the truth and how many times they also rejected it.
That is the two fold nature of preaching and teaching the truth and just like 1 Peter 4:6 states also.
1 Peter 4:6New King James Version 6 For this reason the gospel was preached and to those who are dead (in prison to sin and therefore spiritually) dead and as each generation parallels with the time or Noah also), that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but (or) live according to God in the spirit
What I posted is the only historical evidence which exists showing how the native Greek speaking early church interpreted the scriptures. Which is far more reliable than any modern version.
Other than that what you believe/don't believe is but as meaningful to me as the scribblings on a public facility wall.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
What I posted is the only historical evidence which exists showing how the native Greek speaking early church interpreted the scriptures. Which is far more reliable than any modern version.
Other than that what you believe/don't believe is but as meaningful to me as the scribblings on a public facility wall.
The feeling is mutual dude.

Nevertheless here is what Paul said about what was already beginning within the NT Temple of God even while he and other of the apostles were still alive.

2 Thessalonians 2:7​

New International Version​

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.



Acts 20
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

See also 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 2 and also Jude.


2 Timothy 4:3​

New American Standard Bible​

3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires,


Like I said and will again, for while you ask me to prove that Thomas wasn't calling Jesus God, you can't prove that he was either and actually the fact that there is not even one more occurrence in the NT gospels where any other disciples ever spoke to Jesus and addressed him as God, says more than enough that neither was Thomas doing this John 20:28 either.

For Jesus didn't appear to him to prove that he himself was God but rather that God had raised him from the dead and therefore he was speaking to Jesus as the Lord of him and to God as the God of him who raised Jesus from the dead.
 
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OldShepherd

Active member
The feeling is mutual dude.

Nevertheless here is what Paul said about what was already beginning within the NT Temple of God even while he and other of the apostles were still alive.
Thessalonians 2:7New International Version

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

Acts 20
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
See also 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Peter 2 and also Jude.
2 Timothy 4:3

New American Standard Bible

3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires,


Like I said and will again, for while you ask me to prove that Thomas wasn't calling Jesus God, you can't prove that he was either and actually the fact that there is not even one more occurrence in the NT gospels where any other disciples ever spoke to Jesus and addressed him as God, says more than enough that neither was Thomas doing this John 20:28 either.

For Jesus didn't appear to him to prove that he himself was God but rather that God had raised him from the dead and therefore he was speaking to Jesus as the Lord of him and to God as the God of him who raised Jesus from the dead.

You got it backwards amigo. I don't have to prove Thomas was calling Jesus "my Lord and my God" That is exactly the plain meaning of the vs. If you have a different interpretation YOU have to prove it. Lexically, grammatically, historically anything beside an unsupported assertion.
That none of the other disciples addressed Jesus as "God" is a logical fallacy argument from silence.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
You got it backwards amigo. I don't have to prove Thomas was calling Jesus "my Lord and my God" That is exactly the plain meaning of the vs. If you have a different interpretation YOU have to prove it. Lexically, grammatically, historically anything beside an unsupported assertion.
That none of the other disciples addressed Jesus as "God" is a logical fallacy argument from silence.
Then what is the plain meaning of these words and spoken right from Jesus' own mouth and you says is your Lord dude?

John 5:26, "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also"

John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".

John 17:3, "This is eternal life, that they might know you (Father), The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent".



Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Sorry, but there is no way around it, for Thomas was expressing his faith unto both Jesus who was now absolutely proven to be his Lord that God promised from the decedents of David and by his resurrection from the dead and also unto his God who raised Jesus up from the dead and was manifesting himself through Jesus.

Jesus didn't appear to Thomas so that he would believe that Jesus was God but rather to prove to him that God has raised him from the dead and by this also to reveal to him once and for all, that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah that God sent from the descendants of David to be his Lord.

See also Acts 2:22-36 and also Paul's words about this in Acts 13:30-41

Acts 13:30-41 New American Standard Bible

30 But God raised Him from the dead;

31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.

32 And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,

33 that God has fulfilled this promise to those of us who are the descendants by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son; today I have fathered You.’

34 As for the fact that He raised Him from the dead, never again to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and faithful mercies of David.’

35 Therefore, He also says in another Psalm: ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’

36 For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, fell asleep, and was buried among his fathers and underwent decay;

37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay.

38 Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

40 Therefore, see that the thing spoken of in the Prophets does not come upon you:

41 ‘Look, you scoffers, and be astonished, and perish;

For I am accomplishing a work in your days,

A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’”


Acts 2:36 New American Standard Bible

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

This is what Thomas believed and in believing therefore, he spoke his renewed faith in the fact that Jesus was indeed the promised Lord and King who would come from the descendants of David and that God was the one who promised this and therefore raised Jesus from the dead to fulfill it.

 
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