Question for Trinitarians on John 20:28?

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Yes and that is also why the Hebrew word "echad" doesn't work with what is taught concerning their trinity.

For when echad is used as a plural and as in a cluster of grapes, the whole cluster is one "echad" and if the cluster has thirty grapes, then one grape alone is only 1/30th of the cluster and doesn't amount to the full cluster alone.


However trinitarians say that each person of their trinity is 100% God and which is why Deuteronomy 6:4 doesn't work with the idea that God is a trinity.
Agreed. The context of the Shema too id that the context is exclusively one.
 
No problem at all. Can you read the texts?

Like I said messiah has nothing to do with the verses. Cyrus does.

Don't forget to mention the biased translations, to be fair ;)

You have not been able to tell us WHEN the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 begins and ends REGARDLESS of the translation.

So it seems that Jews have NO explanation for Daniel 9:24-27.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
You have not been able to tell us WHEN the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 begins and ends REGARDLESS of the translation.

So it seems that Jews have NO explanation for Daniel 9:24-27.
The verses I gave you say when. I also show you who the first Messiah in context is.

Don't forget either that Jesus nor the NT mention his fulfilling any of this.
 
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The verses I gave you say when. I also show you who the first Messiah in context is.

Don't forget either that Jesus nor the NT mention his fulfilling any of this.

I have not seen you post any dates. So...

What is the beginning date and the ending date for the "seventy weeks" prophesied in Daniel 9:24?

I believe the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 refers to the 490 years between 458 BC and AD 33.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
I have not seen you post any dates. So...

What is the beginning date and the ending date for the "seventy weeks" prophesied in Daniel 9:24?

I believe the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 refers to the 490 years between 458 BC and AD 33.
Ok, you're allowed your opinion.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Now then, Jesus lived among his disciples for about 3 1/2 years and he spoke unto them and they also spoke to him and called him Lord (kurios) many times correct?

By the way, God made Jesus to be Lord and Messiah and therefore his being called "Lord" by no means makes him God, just in case you wanted to try and use that looney argument here.

Acts 2:36​

New International Version​

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

So here is the question, where other than by Thomas in John 20:28, was Jesus ever spoken to and addressed as being God by any of the disciples and being you insist that he was in John 20:28?

Also, if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "The Lord of me and The God of me" and which is how it reads in the original Greek, why didn't Thomas just say this instead, "The Lord God of me".

For if indeed he was speaking to only Jesus and not the Father God also who was dwelling within Jesus and as Jesus taught all his disciples in John 14:10, then it is really odd, that he would use the definite articles twice and once in front of the word Lord and then also in front of the word God and then also separate the two titles by the Greek equivalent of "and".IO

Now then, Jesus lived among his disciples for about 3 1/2 years and he spoke unto them and they also spoke to him and called him Lord (kurios) many times correct?

By the way, God made Jesus to be Lord and Messiah and therefore his being called "Lord" by no means makes him God, just in case you wanted to try and use that looney argument here.

Acts 2:36​

New International Version​

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.

So here is the question, where other than by Thomas in John 20:28, was Jesus ever spoken to and addressed as being God by any of the disciples and being you insist that he was in John 20:28?

Also, if Thomas was truly calling Jesus "The Lord of me and The God of me" and which is how it reads in the original Greek, why didn't Thomas just say this instead, "The Lord God of me".

For if indeed he was speaking to only Jesus and not the Father God also who was dwelling within Jesus and as Jesus taught all his disciples in John 14:10, then it is really odd, that he would use the definite articles twice and once in front of the word Lord and then also in front of the word God and then also separate the two titles by the Greek equivalent of "and".
IOW God was proclaiming, declaring Jesus to be who He was BORN as: The Lord and Christ
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Hey I don't care one way or the other what you follow, for I am kind of like Jonah was on that note.

However, unlike Nineveh who Jonah preached to, and who didn't know their right hand from the left about God, you don't have that excuse and in fact you don't have any excuse at all and that is why I don't care that you want to continue in following your false doctrines either and it is just that simple.

However I will keep expressing the truth about your passages just the same in order that what Jesus words "unto him who is given much, shall much be required" might be fulfilled regarding you at the end of this age.


All things were created in and through Jesus and the scripture never states that Jesus himself ever created even one thing.

All things being created in and through Jesus, simply refers to God creating them with Jesus as the central figure in his plan and purpose for them to be created and nothing more or less than this either.
ALL things were created by/through Jesus has but ONE meaning. Jesus created ALL things.
 
I have not seen you post any dates. So...

What is the beginning date and the ending date for the "seventy weeks" prophesied in Daniel 9:24?

I believe the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 refers to the 490 years between 458 BC and AD 33.
What do you know, we agree on at least something here, but there is no gap in between the first 69 weeks and that seventieth week like trins believe about it.

For if there was, then the Messiah would have been put to death in the gap and that would be impossible for the objectives mentioned in verse 24 to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks then.

For they were all already fulfilled through Jesus at his first coming.

What throws many off in this prophecy, is that Daniel includes other prophecies of what will happen to those who reject the covenant after Jesus fulfills it and the first is in the last half of verse 26 concerning the Jews of that generation.

Then also in the last half of verse 27, concerning both Jews and Gentiles who reject the covenant at the end of this age also.

However, the gap theory is false doctrine altogether and the Bible never speaks of a 7 year tribulation but in Revelation 13, it very clearly instead tells us that the beast will only be given only 42 months and which is only one half of a 7.

I somewhat believe that even this is symbolic language to express that the beasts kingdom will never come into a completion represented by the number 7, but will instead be cut short of it through the coming of Jesus in the clouds to destroy it.
 
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What do you know, we agree on at least something here, but there is no gap in between the first 69 weeks and that seventieth week like trins believe about it.

Note: It is not correct to say "Trins" believe there is a gap between the 69 weeks and the 70th week. A person's view of the Trinity does not affect their view of Daniel 9:27. The difference is your basic view of prophecy, whether you are Preterist, Presentist, or Futurist. Preterists and Presentists say there is no gap. Only Futurists say there is a gap.


Hey, I did not see any dates in your response.

Are you able to answer the question...

What is the beginning date and the ending date for the "seventy weeks" prophesied in Daniel 9:24?

I believe the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 refers to the 490 years between 458 BC and AD 33.
 
Note: It is not correct to say "Trins" believe there is a gap between the 69 weeks and the 70th week. A person's view of the Trinity does not affect their view of Daniel 9:27. The difference is your basic view of prophecy, whether you are Preterist, Presentist, or Futurist. Preterists and Presentists say there is no gap. Only Futurists say there is a gap.


Hey, I did not see any dates in your response.

Are you able to answer the question...

What is the beginning date and the ending date for the "seventy weeks" prophesied in Daniel 9:24?

I believe the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24 refers to the 490 years between 458 BC and AD 33.
The fact remains, that the pre trib rapture and many other false doctrines came out of the trinitarian churches and I was not saying that all trins believe these doctrine but all of the churches I belonged to as a trin did.


I don't think that we can know for certain but from what I remember I hold to what you also believe about it but with one possible difference.

I believe that the middle of the week was when Jesus died and that was the fulfillment of the first three and a half years of that last week.

However the confirmation of the covenant also included the out pouring of the Holy Spirit and also the calling and salvation of Paul to replace Judas as God's pick and the knowledge and corrections that would come through Paul.


Therefore I believe that the first three and a half years started at Jesus baptism and ended at his death and then the last three and a half years started with the resurrection and includes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and Paul's conversion and his knowledge from Jesus being added to complete the confirmation of the covenant.

I hardly ever believe what others do about the Bible and it is because the only group I have ever been taught under and belonged to was that of the trin churches I belonged to after my conversion and the only reason I followed what they taught me starting off, is because I didn't have a knowledge of my own yet from the scriptures when I first got converted.

When I stated to receive my own knowledge from God in my personal relationship with him, I began to see contradictions in what I was being taught.

However, it still took God better than 30 years of showing me these contractions to get me to listen to him about them, for I didn't want to believe that I was a genuine believer but still belonging to a cult but then again, Revelations 18:4 clearly says that this the case in the present apostasy.

What someone believes in their mind by being pre programed with false doctrine is quite different than what someone has revealed to them by God in their heart in order for them to be saved by it.

Therefore, I believe that although the church has fallen into great apostasy from the truth, God still works through it and saves people but only by what he himself reveals to their hearts concerning the gospel message and there is nothing in that message that requires us to believe that Jesus is God or that God is a trinity.
 

OldShepherd

Active member
It doesn't matter how a pagan or Christian would understand it, but a religious Jew. Theos in the context of a human is just a servant, human, messenger, non-divine. Same with Kyrios.
Do you need examples?
Nonsense. Have you read the Bible?
Isaiah 42:6
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for​
a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 49:6
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel:
I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isaiah 60:3
3 And
the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Luke 2:32
32
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Acts 13:47
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Once again my question how would former pagan gentile Christians understand e.g. John 1:1?
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Nonsense. Have you read the Bible?
Isaiah 42:6

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for

a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 49:6

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 60:3

3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Luke 2:32

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Acts 13:47

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Once again my question how would former pagan gentile Christians understand e.g. John 1:1?
Doesn't matter. The whole point of the gospels is to convince the Jews of Jesus claims. Jesus even said he came for the lost house of Israel, not the gentiles, Matthew 15:24.

Do you know how the term goyim is used in Tanakh?

The term goy or goyim is also used of Israel, and this is the context of Isaiah 42:6. So much so, that Jesus relates it to the Jews on his Sabbath reading in the NT, Luke 4:6-7, Isaiah 61. He says the prophecy was fulfilled at his reading in their presence.
 
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OldShepherd

Active member
Doesn't matter. The whole point of the gospels is to convince the Jews of Jesus claims. Jesus even said he came for the lost house of Israel, not the gentiles, Matthew 15:24.
Do you know how the term goyim is used in Tanakh?
The term goy or goyim is also used of Israel, and this is the context of Isaiah 42:6. So much so, that Jesus relates it to the Jews on his Sabbath reading in the NT, Luke 4:6-7, Isaiah 61. He says the prophecy was fulfilled at his reading in their presence.
Who was sent to be a light to the gentiles. Isaiah 42:6, 49:6, 60:3 Luke 2;32, Acts 13:47
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Who was sent to be a light to the gentiles. Isaiah 42:6, 49:6, 60:3 Luke 2;32, Acts 13:47
Do you have an answer for my reply, oldsheperd?

Jewjitzu said previously...
Doesn't matter. The whole point of the gospels is to convince the Jews of Jesus claims. Jesus even said he came for the lost house of Israel, not the gentiles, Matthew 15:24.

Do you know how the term goyim is used in Tanakh?

The term goy or goyim is also used of Israel, and this is the context of Isaiah 42:6. So much so, that Jesus relates it to the Jews on his Sabbath reading in the NT, Luke 4:6-7, Isaiah 61. He says the prophecy was fulfilled at his reading in their presence.
 
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