Question on Psalms 82

Markk

Super Member
That's real interesting, especially since it is God Himself who took His place in the midst of those gods:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

A poster wrote this in another threads OP

Then in his second post he wrote…” It wasn't about becoming gods--they were already gods:”

The begs a question..if they were already gods, which means exalted men in a LDS construct, and yet they became evil, … ”does the LDS church teach that a God, including HF, in that he to is just a exalted man…can become evil?”

I suppose interpreting Psalms 82, from a LDS perspective, demands that God, and exalted being has a nature for the possibility Evil.
 
A poster wrote this in another threads OP

Then in his second post he wrote…” It wasn't about becoming gods--they were already gods:”

The begs a question..if they were already gods, which means exalted men in a LDS construct, and yet they became evil, … ”does the LDS church teach that a God, including HF, in that he to is just a exalted man…can become evil?”

I suppose interpreting Psalms 82, from a LDS perspective, demands that God, and exalted being has a nature for the possibility Evil.
W. Cleon Skousen, a former BYU professor, wrote:

Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such.... But since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate.... 'He would cease to be God.' Our Heavenly Father can do only those things which the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).
 
W. Cleon Skousen, a former BYU professor, wrote:

Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such.... But since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate.... 'He would cease to be God.' Our Heavenly Father can do only those things which the intelligences under Him are voluntarily willing to support Him in accomplishing (The First 2000 Years, pp. 355-356).
There are two main camps in Mormon theology on the sovereignty of God in regards to him being omnipotent and omniscienc. Inregards to the former BY and others held the position that God’s by nature are always learning, and that they can basically only know what is knowable at the current time, while JFS and others, I believe Talmage if my memory serves me correctly believed and taught, and even criticized BY indirectly for his position that God is and will always be all knowing.

I would have to go back and read through their teachings but I believe that JFS and his camp would not support a view that God can fall and has the ability to sin. The elohim in Psalms 82 were wicked so DB’s position that they were God’s and not judges as Talmage would support contradicts LDS theology at many levels.
 
A poster wrote this in another threads OP

Then in his second post he wrote…” It wasn't about becoming gods--they were already gods:”

The begs a question..if they were already gods, which means exalted men in a LDS construct, and yet they became evil, … ”does the LDS church teach that a God, including HF, in that he to is just a exalted man…can become evil?”

I suppose interpreting Psalms 82, from a LDS perspective, demands that God, and exalted being has a nature for the possibility Evil.
There are two main camps in Mormon theology on the sovereignty of God in regards to him being omnipotent and omniscienc. Inregards to the former BY and others held the position that God’s by nature are always learning, and that they can basically only know what is knowable at the current time, while JFS and others, I believe Talmage if my memory serves me correctly believed and taught, and even criticized BY indirectly for his position that God is and will always be all knowing.

I would have to go back and read through their teachings but I believe that JFS and his camp would not support a view that God can fall and has the ability to sin. The elohim in Psalms 82 were wicked so DB’s position that they were God’s and not judges as Talmage would support contradicts LDS theology at many levels.

Links to non-official Mormon sites not allowed--just say it is to FAIR--Moderator

Then at the end of the course of his life and ministry, he begins to teach much about this subject. From the King Follett Sermon we have this famous quote, “in the beginning the head of the gods called a council of the gods. They came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it”. And then, Joseph states, I love this. “When we begin to learn this way, that God exists in this council structure with other divine beings, that he calls gods. We begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship”. So this is not a superficial topic, in fact it’s quite significant in terms of the of the restoration. Well, Joseph Smith, from the words of Joseph Smith, page 84 “it has been a doctrine taught by this Church that we were in the grand council amongst the gods, in the plural, when the organization of this world was contemplated. And that the laws of government were all made and sanctioned by all present.

A few of the primary Hebrew words associated with the “Heavenly Council of gods”, in the plural, in the Old Testament includes “sode” which is the term council, “moed” which means meeting or assembly, “Adagh” were the congregation, “Kedushean” which means the “Holy Ones”, “The Saints”. And that’s kind of fun too, because of course what do we belong to ultimately “ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, and “saints” is the technical term for the “holy ones” who are members of the “heavenly assembly”.

They are the gods who interact with Jehovah in that Council structure, it’s kind of fun. “Saba”, the host, is another term that we see and of course “Elohim”, and one of the exciting ones to recognize is simply the term “sons of God”. Now you will see that expression all throughout the Old Testament and when we see it in our King James translation, it is a reference to the “gods of the council”.

One of the great council texts from the Old Testament is Psalm 82:1 and I give you the NRSV translation, “God has taken His place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods he holds judgment”, the NRSV. So this is an exciting text, and one of course that Jesus cites when he defends his divinity in the New Testament. Well what about the “sons of God”? Two ways to understand of this, one is this, they are the “sons of God” meaning that they are the literal offspring of God. And the other possible way to interpret this, is that the term “son” in all Semitic languages, whether it’s” Ben” in Hebrew, “Bar” in Aramaic,” Mar” in Akkadian or “Wald” in Ethiopic, doesn’t matter which way you go. In all Semitic languages “son” has the connotation of referring to members of the group, cast, or guild.
 
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Prophets in the Old Testament interact with this council in a very interesting way, Amos 3:7, “Surely the Lord God doeth nothing, save he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”. But the Hebrew word there is “Sote”, which means not secret but council, council assembly. They are ones who stand in the assembly Jeremiah 23:18, Jeremiah turns and he is talking about the false prophets and he says you can distinguish a false prophet from a true prophet, because a true prophet has stood in the council.

And he is called in that council to be a messenger and mediator for the council. And it’s the crisis in Israel is in apostasy, judgment is at hand and so forth. It makes the Old Testament come alive. Isaiah chapter 1, all you have to do is start reading and Isaiah starts talking and invokes heaven and earth as witnesses in allusion to the council. Heaven and earth serves in metonymy which is the technical term from a literally perspective, it’s a type of personification, where in the location refers to the individuals there in.
 
A poster wrote this in another threads OP

Then in his second post he wrote…” It wasn't about becoming gods--they were already gods:”

The begs a question..if they were already gods, which means exalted men in a LDS construct,

That isn't necessarily true--as the LDS believe Jesus Christ was the God of the OT--and was yet to come to earth as a man. The gods of the Divine Council weren't men either.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

and yet they became evil, … ”does the LDS church teach that a God, .....has a nature for the possibility Evil.

Seeing Satan is a god--I would say gods have the right to choose evil--which is shown in Psalm 82:1 also:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Satan was never a mortal man either.
 
Link to fair latter day saints removed--Mod

Then at the end of the course of his life and ministry, he begins to teach much about this subject. From the King Follett Sermon we have this famous quote, “in the beginning the head of the gods called a council of the gods. They came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it”. And then, Joseph states, I love this. “When we begin to learn this way, that God exists in this council structure with other divine beings, that he calls gods. We begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship”. So this is not a superficial topic, in fact it’s quite significant in terms of the of the restoration. Well, Joseph Smith, from the words of Joseph Smith, page 84 “it has been a doctrine taught by this Church that we were in the grand council amongst the gods, in the plural, when the organization of this world was contemplated. And that the laws of government were all made and sanctioned by all present.

A few of the primary Hebrew words associated with the “Heavenly Council of gods”, in the plural, in the Old Testament includes “sode” which is the term council, “moed” which means meeting or assembly, “Adagh” were the congregation, “Kedushean” which means the “Holy Ones”, “The Saints”. And that’s kind of fun too, because of course what do we belong to ultimately “ The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, and “saints” is the technical term for the “holy ones” who are members of the “heavenly assembly”.

They are the gods who interact with Jehovah in that Council structure, it’s kind of fun. “Saba”, the host, is another term that we see and of course “Elohim”, and one of the exciting ones to recognize is simply the term “sons of God”. Now you will see that expression all throughout the Old Testament and when we see it in our King James translation, it is a reference to the “gods of the council”.

One of the great council texts from the Old Testament is Psalm 82:1 and I give you the NRSV translation, “God has taken His place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods he holds judgment”, the NRSV. So this is an exciting text, and one of course that Jesus cites when he defends his divinity in the New Testament. Well what about the “sons of God”? Two ways to understand of this, one is this, they are the “sons of God” meaning that they are the literal offspring of God. And the other possible way to interpret this, is that the term “son” in all Semitic languages, whether it’s” Ben” in Hebrew, “Bar” in Aramaic,” Mar” in Akkadian or “Wald” in Ethiopic, doesn’t matter which way you go. In all Semitic languages “son” has the connotation of referring to members of the group, cast, or guild.
Richard,, what is your point?

I have talked with David personally in internet exchanges about , and would have considered him a internet friend back in the day. He lived in San Diego and we both surfed And is a great guy. He also has a gay daughter and is at odds with the church over their policies on gays. He sits down for 4 hour interview on Mormon Stories… a very good and interesting series… https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/david-bokovoy/ I recommend it Ralf…

David was also at a lost when i asked him if these “gods” were exalted fallen men…he had no answer for that. In other words if you insist that these were gods and yet wicked…it is a huge problem for Mormonism…giant in that it means a exalted man or God can have a evil heart.

I’ll what for you to tell me what your point is?
 
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David was also at a lost when i asked him if these “gods” were exalted fallen men…he had no answer for that.

LOL!!! Yup--you stump the very best of the scholars--to hear you tell.

Another load of hooey.

In other words if you insist that these were gods and yet wicked…it is a huge problem for Mormonism…

Why is that a "huge problem for Mormonism"?

The gods of the Divine Council were reproved because of wickedness:

Psalm 82:1-7---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

What does "Mormonism" have to do with that?
 
That isn't necessarily true--as the LDS believe Jesus Christ was the God of the OT--and was yet to come to earth as a man. The gods of the Divine Council weren't men either.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:



Seeing Satan is a god--I would say gods have the right to choose evil--which is shown in Psalm 82:1 also:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Satan was never a mortal man either.
The Christian church would never entertain the thought that God has the within him the possibility for evil, and honestly I doubt of most LDS members would hold that view. But this is good to know in our discussions on our fundamental differences of how we interpret the Bible and what we both believe respectively.

1. So far we can agree to disagree on what we believe on this topic…I believe that there is not a possibility or one ounce of potential evil in God…while you believe God can choose to be either good or evil.

2. And you believe you can become a God, and have the same power, glory, knowledge, and dominion, while I believe that is impossible a blasphemy.

We are making ground DB.

And for the record, even though we have discussed over the years countless times…I believe that the elohim in Psalms 82 are judges…and I believe Satan is a fallen angel and when called the “god“ of this world, it is in the context of those outside of Christ that choose evil, over the Grace that Christ offers.

I am curious though as to whether or not the LDS church officially teaches that God has the potential for evil…I will check it out.
 
LOL!!! Yup--you stump the very best of the scholars--to hear you tell.

Another load of hooey.



Why is that a "huge problem for Mormonism"?

The gods of the Divine Council were reproved because of wickedness:

Psalm 82:1-7---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

What does "Mormonism" have to do with that?
I explained it to you, it means that exalted men, who received eternal live and a place in the CK turned evil…I believe that is a problem for LDS geology, you obviously don’t. It means if you are exalted, become a God, create worlds for you spirit children…you can run amuck and become wicked God’s.

Feel free to e-mail David and ask him the question him self, he is a very honest person…ask him about our conversations, make sure to mention my internet name of Markk…two k’s But keep in mind the presentation he did a FAIR was a long time ago, and his relationship with the church has changed. But he will be honest with his work and belief on the Divine Council…but youmight have a hard time getting him to equat it to LDS doctrine, but maybe not…it has been 10 years since we last spoke.
 
The Christian church would never entertain the thought that God has the within him the possibility for evil, and honestly I doubt of most LDS members would hold that view. But this is good to know in our discussions on our fundamental differences of how we interpret the Bible and what we both believe respectively.

1. So far we can agree to disagree on what we believe on this topic…I believe that there is not a possibility or one ounce of potential evil in God…while you believe God can choose to be either good or evil.

2. And you believe you can become a God, and have the same power, glory, knowledge, and dominion, while I believe that is impossible a blasphemy.

We are making ground DB.

And for the record, even though we have discussed over the years countless times…I believe that the elohim in Psalms 82 are judges…and I believe Satan is a fallen angel and when called the “god“ of this world, it is in the context of those outside of Christ that choose evil, over the Grace that Christ offers.

I am curious though as to whether or not the LDS church officially teaches that God has the potential for evil…I will check it out.

More straw man fabrications and obsessions with chasing the wind. Good riddance.
 
More straw man fabrications and obsessions with chasing the wind. Good riddance.
How is it a straw-man fabrication? You are having a issue form a ex -Mormon showing you core LDS doctrine for what it is.

You have walked yourself into this corner by believing talking points and not digging into what these doctrines actually mean…then when shown for what they are you can’t deal with them?

You have forced yourself into a corner where you have to believe you can become a God just like HF and Christ, having the same power and knowledge, and yet can make a choice at anytime to being either good or evil!

You said it and claimed it, not me, but again let me just say the God of the Bible is 100% pure and true, and is 100% love..and has no possibility to become evil.

I suggest that instead of coming t a site like this, and cherry picking verses out of context as if you have done any real study, you first study and show your self approved as to what your church teaches and demands…which obviously you have no clue.
 
which means exalted men in a LDS construct
False. Don't pretend you can offer what things mean in the "LDS construct". You're not LDS and your views tend to slant the LDS construct for hostile purposes. Basically, we can't trust any of your opinions about what is in the LDS construct. Jesus was God before he was exalted. None of the beings in PS 82 were exalted and yet they were called gods. Those standing on Solomon's porch were not exalted and yet Jesus called them gods. The Holy Ghost is still not "exalted" and yet He is God.

Let's try to use God's definition of what a God is. There seems to have been several present at the creation of man, both men and women. Care to expound on what God's definition might be? We have the Bible and several examples.
and yet they became evil,
What makes you think they "became evil"? Why weren't they evil all along?
does the LDS church teach that a God, including HF, in that he to is just a exalted man…can become evil?”
I don't see how that question is begged since it is born out of a false premise. But answering anyway, the answer is: No.
 
How is it a straw-man fabrication? You are having a issue form a ex -Mormon showing you core LDS doctrine for what it is.
You mean for what you imagine it is. Your premise is false. There is no doctrine within our church that requires a person to be exalted before they can be a god. Jesus and the Holy Ghost refute that premise.
 
You have walked yourself into this corner
LOL. Your imaginary corner...
You have forced yourself into a corner where you have to believe you can become a God just like HF and Christ, having the same power and knowledge,
That's a pretty good corner to be in. Better that the endless oblivion of doing nothing for eternity hoping that your benefactor doesn't change his mind about what to do with all of you.
You said it and claimed it, not me, but again let me just say the God of the Bible is 100% pure and true, and is 100% love..and has no possibility to become evil.
From what I can tell, looking over these posts, it is you who seem to be fixated on the idea that God can become evil, not us. As I mentioned before, these gods in Ps 82 are not exalted. Your premise is not correct where the LDS construct is concerned. To God, the gods in that council and the gods standing on Solomon's porch were still called gods. Clearly, his definition of a god is not the same as ours. In order to provide context, our critics continue to insist that these gods were human judges even though it's obvious that the gods in Ps 82 are not human at all nor were they ever human before they appeared in that council.

As I understand our religion, man is on a path on which he makes choices and once made, the path is set. From what we can tell from the scriptures, we all existed in eternity. God being in our midst thought it appropriate to set laws whereby we could become like him. Along that path as we matured and understood more about what that entailed, a large group rebelled against the plan and were cast out of heaven. They made their choice. That can never, as far as we know, be undone. The rest of us followed Christ. The result of that choice was to be born in mortality. once we're born we can't undo that choice either. While in this mortal sojourn, we have the opportunity to make choices as well. Those who choose to follow God, aren't likely to abruptly, for no reason at all, to change their mind. But here's the key, rejecting the principles upon which exaltation is based always results in the loss of exaltation. It seems to be a pretty simple concept but you seem to be bent on ignoring it. They cease to be god and that would also be the same for God.

But it's pretty obvious that people with a mature mind, one that isn't led about by fads, rarely, if ever, just suddenly decide to start smoking if they never have. It's much easier to start that habit than it is to stop it and those that have stopped are even more vigilant to not start smoking again. The consequences of smoking far outweigh the consequences of not and it's not just health alone. Those who are addicted to smoking turn into real jerks when they can't get their fix. The point is, choosing good over evil isn't something people are wishy-washy about. It's not like they are going to wake up and decide, today, I'm going to be evil. Being evil, like smoking, comes with natural consequences and in the case of godhood, it means the loss of godhood. God derives his power, IMO, because He is good and he would lose it, the second He decided not to be good.

The problem I think you have with these gods in Ps 82 (which I believe haven't committed any sins yet, but have displayed a propensity to judge harshly that would lead them to make the kind of judgments that would cause them to walk in darkness... That is a natural consequence of bad or evil judgments, walking in darkness - obviously, that would be a problem for God. That's why He's never going to do it) is that God still called them gods even though they had these issues. He still calls us His offspring with all the promises offered to Abraham even though some of us are wicked evil people.

This life is the time when our choices will continue with us through eternity. I hardly believe that anyone who chooses good in this life will somehow choose evil after they die and are exalted. Is it possible? Yes. I believe it is. That's what freedom is all about. But we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. If you smoke, it will irritate your lungs. That's a natural consequence. If you inhale nicotine, you will form a dependency on it. That is a natural consequence. Your fingers and teeth and lips will get a yellow tint to them. Quite possibly, your hair will also be affected. These things can't be avoided. They are all natural consequences of that choice. The same goes for God and the gods. No one, not even God, can avoid the consequences of their choices.
I suggest that instead of coming t a site like this, and cherry picking verses out of context as if you have done any real study, you first study and show your self approved as to what your church teaches and demands…which obviously you have no clue.
It's clear to me that you are the one that has no clue.
 
I have read somewhere that there is always free agency but that a person's character rules his actions.
That statement is an oxymoron. If our character rules our actions there is no free agency. This appears to be an attempt to claim that our character somehow is not part of us. I know what you're trying to say. But our character is us. It does not rule us. Free agency does exist. However, the consequences will always follow and no amount of character will prevent them from occurring.
 
How is it a straw-man fabrication? You are having a issue form a ex -Mormon showing you core LDS doctrine for what it is.

You have walked yourself into this corner by believing talking points and not digging into what these doctrines actually mean…then when shown for what they are you can’t deal with them?

You have forced yourself into a corner where you have to believe you can become a God just like HF and Christ, having the same power and knowledge, and yet can make a choice at anytime to being either good or evil!

You said it and claimed it, not me, but again let me just say the God of the Bible is 100% pure and true, and is 100% love..and has no possibility to become evil.

I suggest that instead of coming t a site like this, and cherry picking verses out of context as if you have done any real study, you first study and show your self approved as to what your church teaches and demands…which obviously you have no clue.

For me--this is just more cloth spun through an imaginary weaver's beam.
 
For me--this is just more cloth spun through an imaginary weaver's beam.
Well, for me it is something that you are emotionally ill-equipped to deal with .

Your comfort zone here, is just parroting the same Bible verses out of context over and over, and over, never interpreting what and how the Christian interprets the verses you randomly throw out, creating a false sense of security that Mormonism is not what it actually is. If you were honest here in your approach you should be able to layout the different interpretations for an honest debate, which you are obviously unprepared to do.

The Christian faith and the LDS faith are drastically different, they just are…especially and in context to the point I am driving in regards to the nature of both God and man.

Christians hold to, and interpret the Bible that God is a sovereign “being,” incapable of sin and or Evil, and that man is God’s creation, and is under His sovereign “care” and control. All things are by Him and for Him, according to His goodwill and pleasure.


Where as the LDS teaching of God/s and men, is much more complicated and scattered, and has a scattered history in the almost 200 years the LDS church has existed. The LDS concept and nature of God is that there are an unlimited amount of Gods, basically Gods without ends. And that God was once a man, and that man can become a God.

The Mormon God becomes a God by the ordinances and complete obedience to eternal laws of their gospel. Which of course is stated as such in their statement of faith.

Two items of focus here I have been able to draw out of you is that you believe. The first being, and it is clearly taught, that you if worthy, can be just like HF and Christ and have the same power, glory, knowledge, and dominion…and populate worlds without end over eternity with your spirit children, and do everything God does. This is a undeniable teaching of the LDS church, and I pasted these teachings from current teaching manuals.

The second, in your insistence that the elohim in psalms 82, and your statement that Gods can choose between good and evil, as Gods. And, you insistence that Satan is a fallen God, demands that all Gods, including HF and Christ have the potential for evil.

There is nothing I wrote here that you have not conceded, yet you call it “ hooey”…and said it was a straw-man.

So how and why is it hooey and a straw-man? You are the one that said this stuff or it is a clear teaching of the church?
 
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