Rand Paul took down Fauci today...

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The Lord has a church. Nobody else, just the Lord.
That is rubbish, for if anyone of those 7 churches of Revelation 2-3 were to have their candlestick removed, they would no longer be a church belonging to Jesus but a church in apostasy and belonging to the spirit of antichrist instead.

Maybe you need to find out what the word "church" means, for it isn't exclusive to only Jesus by it's actual definition.
 
Last edited:

Thistle

Well-known member
That is rubbish, for if anyone of those 7 churches of Revelation 2-3 were to have their candlestick removed, they would no longer be a church belonging to Jesus but a church in apostasy and belonging to the spirit of antichrist instead.
That's a colloquial use of the term "church" to mean local church.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
That's a colloquial use of the term "church" to mean local church.
I gave you passages of scriptures that prove what you are doing is not of the Lord and here you are now avoiding giving any answers to them by this diversion to things not near as important and which your apostate churches are noted for also.

So how about answering to those passages I gave you about your involvement in voting and which is actually only an attempt to legislate God's morality to the lost because they have no conviction coming from the morality of God in your own life and because there is none.

There is none because you also are serving God not by the Spirit but by your own finite efforts and power and that is obviously why you want to legislated it to the lost also, for you don't have it in your own life by grace and the power of the indwelling Spirit, otherwise that is what you would be wanting for the lost also.
 
Last edited:

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Your citation does not prove your point nor even come close.
Your answer is also just what I would expect to hear from one who has been deeply hoodwinked and brainwashed by a pharisaical and legalistic apostate church who although they claim to be justified by faith and are saved by God's grace and mercy, they want to legislate God's morality to the lost and as though that will change their hearts or ever make a lasting difference in America.

Those who are truly saved by God's grace and mercy and are made righteous by faith do not try to legislate morality to the lost unbelievers, for they know that this will not deal with the root of the problem of the sin in the heart and therefore the legislation will not last but it will be in vain.

The witness that the church gives to the lost by this is not that of your trusting in God's grace for your salvation but rather in your obedience to the same law that you are trying to convert the lost by and this is part of the reason why the lost will not be convicted of their sin and which should be by the righteousness of God that they see coming from your lives.

'
However they don't see it in your lives and that is why America is full of sin also, so instead of claiming that the unbelievers in America need to repent, you need to repent yourselves, for as the Bible very clearly says, "judgment must begin at the house of God", before it can reach the unbelievers and lost also.
 
Last edited:

Thistle

Well-known member
. . . they want to legislate God's morality to the lost
I think that there are laws against murder in every state in the union. Is that good or bad? Should a good citizen be in favor of those laws or stand against them? If morality was not a factor in the construction of civil codes of law, what would you replace morality with?
Those who are truly saved by God's grace and mercy …
So God has already given you the task of separating the sheep from the goats?
The witness that the church gives to the lost
When someone stands accused of murder the state now has an interest in justice for a crime. There will be time for the church to do it work of ministry and grace after someone is convicted. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the temporal realm of governance and the spiritual realm of governance. Both are quite relevant.

Those who are truly saved by God's grace and mercy …However they don't see it in your lives
What possible ground could you have for this comment. You could not pick me out of a lineup. If you had any fidelity the truth you could not make this comment, full stop.
that is why America is full of sin
You can't pick me out of a lineup but America is so inundated with me that I've caused all it's sin? My friend, you were diluted.
the Bible very clearly says, "judgment must begin at the house of God", before it can reach the unbelievers and lost also.
This is written to the church for church governance. If a member of the church happens to be a judge this is not an us instruction to keep them from being a judge. If all of the members of a church happened to be citizens of a democratic republic and they have an obligation to the republic to participate by exercising their franchise to vote, this is not an instruction to forsake their obligation to the republic.
 

Carol

Well-known member
I think that there are laws against murder in every state in the union. Is that good or bad? Should a good citizen be in favor of those laws or stand against them? If morality was not a factor in the construction of civil codes of law, what would you replace morality with?

I thought, in this country, it was supposed to be protection of our rights.

So God has already given you the task of separating the sheep from the goats?

When someone stands accused of murder the state now has an interest in justice for a crime. There will be time for the church to do it work of ministry and grace after someone is convicted. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the temporal realm of governance and the spiritual realm of governance. Both are quite relevant.


What possible ground could you have for this comment. You could not pick me out of a lineup. If you had any fidelity the truth you could not make this comment, full stop.

You can't pick me out of a lineup but America is so inundated with me that I've caused all it's sin? My friend, you were diluted.

This is written to the church for church governance. If a member of the church happens to be a judge this is not an us instruction to keep them from being a judge. If all of the members of a church happened to be citizens of a democratic republic and they have an obligation to the republic to participate by exercising their franchise to vote, this is not an instruction to forsake their obligation to the republic.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I think that there are laws against murder in every state in the union. Is that good or bad? Should a good citizen be in favor of those laws or stand against them? If morality was not a factor in the construction of civil codes of law, what would you replace morality with?

Of course, for that is why God put them into power, for the punishment of evil doers and not those who do good and I never said I wasn't in favor of the laws that supply fencing to at least hold back to some degree murderers from committing their murders.

My point is that God did not call his true church to do this but only to have the law written within their own hearts and lives by the Holy Spirit and to be seen by all who have not believed yet as their witness and conviction of the sin in their lives.

This is the correct way to bring conviction upon the lost, for this way they see the law being lived out in God's people instead, this is how the lost are supposed to be convicted of their sins, by the righteousness of the Spirit at work within the church and not by outward legislation that cannot change their hearts.


Just consider this for a moment, why did God send Jesus?

He sent him to fully demonstrate his own morality in the life of a true living human being and then to die for our sins.

For Jesus is the first born of all those also whom God wants that same image to be established within and in essence, God wants his Logos or word to be made flesh in all believers also and so that the unbelievers can see God's righteousness within us and be convicted by it to repentance. .
So God has already given you the task of separating the sheep from the goats?
Read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 2:15-16.


Read your Bible, for Jesus in the full context of Matthew 7 was never saying that men should not judge at all but only that they should not judge in a way that they would be judged themselves.

The proof of this is seen right after this when he continued and said "give not that which is holy to the dogs nor cast your pearls before swine" and then going even further in Matthew 7 he said also, "beware of false prophecy who comes to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves".


It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that in order to obey Jesus' words on this, one would have to make judgments by the Spirit of God

What do dogs and pigs represent in the scriptures?


They represent those who claim to be believers but who really are not and the proof of this can be see in 2 Peter 2 when he finishes with this below.

2 Peter 2:22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Then there is also Paul's words on this in Philippians 3 below.

Philippians 3:1 Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.


By the way, why was Paul calling these men "dogs"?


Because they were attempting to legislate God's morality and just like what you are attempting to do with the unbelievers, while knowing that the Bible very clearly says that this will not change their hearts to have any lasting effect and when it also states that when you do this, it will only cause sin to come alive within them more than before. .


That cat is out of the bag on abortion and gay rights and it got out of the bag because your churches failed to raise the standard of righteousness through your own lives and your trying to put it back in the bag now, will never work, even if you passed laws about it, for they will quickly be over turned again and you ought to have enough God given common sense to see this also.









When someone stands accused of murder the state now has an interest in justice for a crime. There will be time for the church to do it work of ministry and grace after someone is convicted. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing between the temporal realm of governance and the spiritual realm of governance. Both are quite relevant.

There not going to want to listen to the church however, because the church doesn't reveal anything within their own lives that would offer them hope of a change of heart and especially not when you are continuously trying to make them righteous by the legislation of God's moral laws.
What possible ground could you have for this comment. You could not pick me out of a lineup. If you had any fidelity the truth you could not make this comment, full stop.

I know this because you are part and parcel of those in your apostate churches who are wanting to legislate God's morality to the lost and unbelievers and which reveals to me that you could not possibly be walking in God's Spirit yourself , for if you were, you would understand that what you are doing is wrong completely.
You can't pick me out of a lineup but America is so inundated with me that I've caused all it's sin? My friend, you were diluted.
First off, I never said that it was you alone but you and your churches and it is because they have failed to obey God and to raise up the standard by what the unbelievers see in their lives, for they are not seeing God's righteousness their but rather a bunch of Pharisaical hypocrite just like Jesus dealt with at his first coming.


Your legalistic position reveals that you cannot possibly be walking in God's true Grace and power by the Spirit, otherwise you wouldn't be doing this, for the very reason why you even vote is to put someone into office who will legislate God's morality unto the lost and unbelievers.

That is the very evidence and all the evidence that I need, to know you don't know what you are talking about or doing either.
This is written to the church for church governance. If a member of the church happens to be a judge this is not an us instruction to keep them from being a judge. If all of the members of a church happened to be citizens of a democratic republic and they have an obligation to the republic to participate by exercising their franchise to vote, this is not an instruction to forsake their obligation to the republic.
Irrelevant, for my point was that until God gets the disobedience out of us who are his church, he will not be able to get rid of it in the unbelieving world because they are looking to see it in our lives first and not just to hear us talking about it like we do or voting to legislate it unto them when they can't even see it working within us.
 
Last edited:

Thistle

Well-known member
Of course for God put the powers that be into their offices for the punishment of evil doers and not those who do good and I never said I wasn't in favor of the laws that supply fencing to keep murderers from committing their murders.

My point is
Oh, we're supposed to be responding to the point that the other guy was making? Perhaps you can help me understand something then. Why doesn't that work in reverse where you're supposed to understand my point?
that God did not call his true church
"True" ultimately is the only kind of church God a has.
to do this but only to have the law written within into their own hearts and lives by the Holy Spirit and to be seen by all who have not believed yet.
If God's children are to be "in the world but not of the world" they still have to keep their obligations to the world. Do we agree about that? If the answer is yes, then citizens of a democratic republic have an obligation to participate even if they're Christians.
This is the correct way to bring conviction upon the lost, for this way they see the law being lived out in God's people instead, this is how the lost are supposed to be convicted of their sins, by the righteousness of the Spirit at work within the church and not by outward legislation that cannot change their hearts.
In spite of the salt of the earth, the lamp on the lamp stand, or the city on the hill, people are still getting murdered and the state is still convicting them of murder. As near as I can tell, the church has never been so skillful at carrying out its obligation to the great commission that it's put an absolute end to murder in any civilization that I can think of. And given that Jesus was crucified with two criminals on either side, even he didn't put an end to evil doing in his earthly ministry.
Just consider this for a moment, why did God send Jesus?
Because God is love. It would have been impossible for God to create a universe in which his moral agents would choose to sin without also scheduling the cross so that as many as would receive his word could enter the household of faith. Therefore we can say that because God is love he could not create this universe with free moral agents without first scheduling the cross.
He sent him to fully demonstrate his own morality in the life of a true living human being and Jesus is the first born of all those also whom God wants that same image to be established within and in essence, God wants his Logos or word to be made flesh in all believers also.
I might've said that a bit differently, but you seem to be talking about Romans eight.
That cat is out of the bag on abortion
I think everyone is watching with great interest as the Supreme Court is about to consider a case that will bring Roe v. Wade into the center of our view. Will they revert to stare decisis or will they consider the constitutional question of rights? So returning to your analogy the cat happens to be in the supreme courts hands at the moment and whether it goes back in the bag or not is very much an open question.
and gay rights
As far as I know, and this is not unique to gays, everybody in the United States has all the same rights.
and it got out of the bag because your churches failed to raise the standard of righteousness through your own lives and your trying to put it back in the bag now, will never work, even if you passed laws about it, for they will quickly be over turned and you ought to have enough God given common sense to see this also.
As far as overturning laws it looks like we're on the backside of that mountain.
There not going to want to listen to the church however,
Which is why I don't presume to speak for the church.
because the church doesn't reveal anything within their own lives that would offer them hope of a change of heart and especially not when you are continuously trying to make them righteous by the legislation of God's moral laws.
I'll leave condemnations of the Lords church up to you I'm not interested in treding on that territory.
I know this
If these posts you've been writing are any indication, you know far less than your self aggrandizing attributions would suggest.
because you are part and parcel of those in your apostate churches
Exhibit one…
who are wanting to legislate God's morality to the lost and unbelievers and which reveals to me that you could not possibly be walking in God's Spirit yourself ,
I'm not speaking for the Lords church. Why you insist on making this false attribution to me, the good Lord only knows, but I'll thank you so stop.
for if you were, you would understand that what you are doing is wrong completely.
It would also be appreciated if you would stop speaking for God. Clearly you're not qualified.
Your legalistic position reveals that you cannot possibly be walking in God's true Grace power by the Spirit, otherwise you wouldn't be doing this, for the very reason why you even vote is to put someone into office who will legislate God's morality unto the lost and unbelievers.
Above you make false attribution to me here you make attributions of motive to me. Do you have a shred of intellectual intelligence integrity? If the answer is yes I do encourage you to get it out of the broom closet and start using it.
That is the very evidence and all the evidence that I need, to know you don't know what you are talking about or doing either.
Which begs the question of why you're so obsessed with responding to me. If one is to believe this comment is a fair representation of your state of mind then there's no possible answer to that question.
Irrelevant, for my point was that until God gets the disobedience out of us who are his church, he will not be able to get rid of it in the unbelieving world because they are looking to see it in our lives first and not just to hear us talking about it like we do or voting to legislate it unto them when they can't even see it working within us.
Perhaps you missed the point. This is a secular forum, and whether contributors happen to be Christians or not, they're not speaking for the church. If you want to have a discussion which deals with the inside baseball within the church walls, this is not your fourm. Go to one of the doctrine forms, church governance forms, or church discipline forms.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Oh, we're supposed to be responding to the point that the other guy was making? Perhaps you can help me understand something then. Why doesn't that work in reverse where you're supposed to understand my point?

I do understand your points and I understand them to be the un Biblical traditions and false doctrines created by men and not given to us by the Holy Spirit.
"True" ultimately is the only kind of church God a has.

Yep, but the majority of what would appear to be his church (called out ones) is now worshipping the Devil and the spirit of antichrist while being deceived into believing that they are truly worshipping God and his true appointed King Jesus Christ.

The Greek word translated as "church" is "ecclesia" and which translated means "called out" and you should remember these words of Jesus, "for many are called but few are chosen".

Therefore many in your churches were truly called out, but they weren't chosen because they stopped short of the full truth of God as revealed from the scriptures by the Spirit and for the counterfeit replacement of their own carnal intellects, human reasoning and wisdom (the flesh).
If God's children are to be "in the world but not of the world" they still have to keep their obligations to the world. Do we agree about that? If the answer is yes, then citizens of a democratic republic have an obligation to participate even if they're Christians.

Let's see the scripture verses that say this? Otherwise you are just making things up like usual.
In spite of the salt of the earth, the lamp on the lamp stand, or the city on the hill, people are still getting murdered and the state is still convicting them of murder.

How is that relevant to what I am arguing here?

For we have already covered the fact that God has put the rulers in charge of that and not his church and who are suppose to be bringing the conviction for the sins of the unbelievers through the righteousness that they have in their own lives and which the unbelievers are suppose to be seeing and being convicted by instead of the way you are attempt to do it by law. .
As near as I can tell, the church has never been so skillful at carrying out its obligation to the great commission that it's put an absolute end to murder in any civilization that I can think of. And given that Jesus was crucified with two criminals on either side, even he didn't put an end to evil doing in his earthly ministry.

No one said that it would put a complete end to it but it should by now have done a lot more at it than what it has.


Furthermore, Jesus was one person of complete obedience out of the majority of Israel that were a total mess in regards to living righteous lives and they would have loved your churches today who attempt to legislated the moral laws of God being that is what they believed in also and which is what makes them your bedfellows also.
Because God is love. It would have been impossible for God to create a universe in which his moral agents would choose to sin without also scheduling the cross so that as many as would receive his word could enter the household of faith. Therefore we can say that because God is love he could not create this universe with free moral agents without first scheduling the cross.

That is true but also irrelevant to my argument here.
I might've said that a bit differently, but you seem to be talking about Romans eight.
Yep, Romans 8:29 but my point is that it was God's plan from the very beginning (predestined) that Jesus would be the first born in whom his image of righteousness would be made manifest to this world and that he would also be the model from which all of his saints would also be conformed to.
I think everyone is watching with great interest as the Supreme Court is about to consider a case that will bring Roe v. Wade into the center of our view. Will they revert to stare decisis or will they consider the constitutional question of rights? So returning to your analogy the cat happens to be in the supreme courts hands at the moment and whether it goes back in the bag or not is very much an open question.

Even if they over turn roe vs wade, it will not last, because your churches by their disobedience have already let the cat out of the bag because they did not raise the righteous standard of God up unto the unbelieving by how they behave in their own lives and especially concerning the love commandments of Jesus.
As far as I know, and this is not unique to gays, everybody in the United States has all the same rights.

As far as overturning laws it looks like we're on the backside of that mountain.

Which is why I don't presume to speak for the church.

I'll leave condemnations of the Lords church up to you I'm not interested in treding on that territory.

Your own Bible tells you that you as a member of the church, should be involved in judging what is going on in your churches and which proves to me that you don't know the Bible like you think you do.
If these posts you've been writing are any indication, you know far less than your self aggrandizing attributions would suggest.

Unlike you, I am doing exactly what the Bible tells us to do, for your churches are a mess and need to repent and come back to the truth from their apostasy.
Exhibit one…

I'm not speaking for the Lords church. Why you insist on making this false attribution to me, the good Lord only knows, but I'll thank you so stop.

It would also be appreciated if you would stop speaking for God. Clearly you're not qualified.
First off, I am not really speaking of the Lord's church but rather the one who has given itself over the to spirit of antichrist instead.

Anti= in place of and not the genuine.


And of course you being deceived like you obviously are, believe that you are qualified to speak for God about it huh?
Above you make false attribution to me here you make attributions of motive to me. Do you have a shred of intellectual intelligence integrity? If the answer is yes I do encourage you to get it out of the broom closet and start using it.

I don't endorse myself concerning my own intelligence, for we believe the truth are not suppose to be led by our own intelligence anyhow but rather by the mind of Christ which is the Holy Spirit of God and as Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 very clearly reveals for us also. ,
Which begs the question of why you're so obsessed with responding to me. If one is to believe this comment is a fair representation of your state of mind then there's no possible answer to that question.

And which reveals even further how ignorant you are of the two fold purpose for teaching and preaching the true, for on one hand the preaching is to present the scriptures so that God can use them to bring people to repentance and faith in him.

However, on the other hand we preach and teach to present the truth unto all men so that on the day of judgment all excuses are removed from them for not believing and all mouths of those who didn't and wouldn't believe are stopped and become guilty before God.

And it is the latter of those two reasons why I continue to respond to you, for I highly doubt from your obstinate way, that you will ever respond to the truth and truly repent of your false doctrines, for from what I see, you are a hard liner in your addiction to your false doctrines.
Perhaps you missed the point. This is a secular forum, and whether contributors happen to be Christians or not, they're not speaking for the church. If you want to have a discussion which deals with the inside baseball within the church walls, this is not your fourm. Go to one of the doctrine forms, church governance forms, or church discipline forms.
I didn't miss your point but only disagreed with you about it.

For that passage "judgment must begin at the house of God" was written to reveal the fact that until God's people pass through God's judgment and are corrected, God will not judge those in the world because intends for them first to see the correct example of his righteousness within the church before he judges them for not believing it after they see it.
 
Last edited:

Thistle

Well-known member
I do understand your points
No you don't. This is not a forum where Christians get together and talk about church discipline. This is a secular forum where we address secular issues. Christians don't stop being Christians even when they were addressing secular issues with a secular audience.
and I understand them to be the un Biblical
Okay, you have hijacked this thread long enough with your off-topic diversions I'm done.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
No you don't. This is not a forum where Christians get together and talk about church discipline. This is a secular forum where we address secular issues. Christians don't stop being Christians even when they were addressing secular issues with a secular audience.

There is nothing wrong with discussing the issues but there is entirely something wrong with your voting to legislate God's morality through written laws and of which is Gold's business alone and I gave you plenty of verses to support this.

However, you gave nothing from the Bible at all to support your view on it but only from your own carnal human reasoning on it and which is what got the churches into the mess they are in presently in to start with.
Okay, you have hijacked this thread long enough with your off-topic diversions I'm done.
Someone ought to attempt to divert what is being said on this thread, for you are also just as wrong in your judgment of Dr. Fauci and especially when he has pretty much been cleared as not having done what Rand Paul wanted to accuse him of and which you shouldn't have taken part of to begin with.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
it is easy to dismiss covid-19 by saying it has "only" a death rate of 1-2%--unless loved ones and friends are in that 1-2 percentile.
So why do you dismiss deaths from the jab?
Why do you disagree with Conservative Christians who dismiss your Fake News tabloids?
 
Top