Rapture yes or no

The "rapture" event is not a removal of believers from the earth, but a meeting in the air to then escort Jesus down to reign for 1,000 years.
What?

No evaluation of believers? No need for preparation?

Just ZAP! BAM! Now rule with me?

Seven years will be needed.... first to evaluate which believers will qualify to reign with Him. (1Cor 3:11-15)

Those seven years of preparation will be during the time of Tribulation on earth, during which those who qualified are prepared in Heaven to reign.

Do you simply go by your feelings and what little voices tell you?

Test the spirits......
 
Well, you can have your definition of the Rapture, and I will stick to Paul's:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



This is the rapture, and all believers of the Church are glorified. Can't happen before the Lord's Return. Then no one will be left to populate the earth.

And just as in 2 Thessalonians, he goes from the Rapture to the Day of the Lord:


1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.



Do you understand that people that say "The Day of the Lord" is at hand" are lying to people, particularly when it is supposed to be Christians telling other Christians "The Day of the Lord is at hand?"

It will come suddenly on an unbelieving world, just as it came in the flood and on Sodom. Only unbelievers are outside of the Ark, Who is Jesus Christ.


God bless.
Yes you will stick with Paul for he is your god and the only god you can relate to as a sinner, he was one to and preached it.

Ill stick with Jesus and lead me to the One who did take me out from this world where all things became new, a new heaven and earth is revealed that I may be the righteousness of God in Christ as Jesus was the righteousness of God in Christ, we are anointed of God in righteousness instead of Paul who was unrighteous and a sinner instead.
 
What?

No evaluation of believers? No need for preparation?

Just ZAP! BAM! Now rule with me?

Seven years will be needed.... first to evaluate which believers will qualify to reign with Him. (1Cor 3:11-15)

Those seven years of preparation will be during the time of Tribulation on earth, during which those who qualified are prepared in Heaven to reign.

Do you simply go by your feelings and what little voices tell you?

Test the spirits......
It is only those who live through the tribulation and those who die during the tribulation that reign with Christ during the 1,000 years.

Their faith is proven to be tested and true by enduring the tribulation and remaining faithful.

Those who die before the tribulation will not experience the first resurrection. They will be resurrected after the 1,000 year reign. As the Scriptures say,

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:4‭-‬5 ESV

If pre-trib rapture is true, then there would be a resurrection before the first resurrection.

How could there be a resurrection before the first resurrection?

Plus, how could the rest of the dead come to life if they already came to life during the pre-trib rapture?
 
It is only those who live through the tribulation and those who die during the tribulation that reign with Christ during the 1,000 years.
No.... Those will be the ones one earth to enter the Millennium with Christ and his church reigning over them.

Why do you like to simply guess?
 
Sorry Gary Mac, John states that those who deny that Jesus is the Christ are not sons of God, nor can they be, because sons of God are made by the very declaration that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.
Im sorry as well -- that those who deny Jesus cant possibly be like him as God demands of you to be like and walk in His same light, perfect even as your Father in heaven is powerfect as Jesus was perfect in Him as well. That is impossible for those who deny Jesus was of Christ Gods anointing.

Jesus really was Gods anointed whether you think so or not.
So are we all who has the same from God as Jesus had whether you think so or not.
It isn't me that needs to feel better about my doctrine.
If you are comfortable being of Paul and a sinner then I understand why you won't give over to Jesus to be the righteousness of God in Christ as Jesus was the righteousness of God in Christ, He was anointed of God as well as we all are who has from Him the same.
No amount of posting is going to change the fact you deny that Jesus is the Christ.
No amount of posting will get you to understand who Christ is. You would just have to receive from God His same Spirit to be anointed of Him yourself. Which would be Christ in you, But that isn't going to happen from the God who did it in Jesus for you is He?
I know it, you know it, and God knows it.
You know you are a liar, and I know it, and God knows it. You lie when you say I do not believe was Christ. He was indeed. You just dont know Him is all.
Why you would continue to peddle your religion among Christians is the only mystery here.
Same reason Jesus did, that ye might be saved!
But it isn't really a mystery, is it, because we know that the Gospel of Christ is foolishness to them that are perishing.
That is what I keep telling you. You just won't listen to Jesus. Paul is your god just as you say that Paul had it right as a sinner and Jesus had it wrong to be without sin.
God bless.
 
Plus, how could the rest of the dead come to life if they already came to life during the pre-trib rapture?

It says.. The dead IN Christ... those who died during the church age - will be resurrected first. Then the Rapture.

Not all believers throughout history were chosen by God to be the Bride of Christ. Only those predestined to be born during the church age are to be His bride.
 
Let's focus on one point at a time to help reveal the contradictions of pre-trib rapture.

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:4‭-‬5

This is the first resurrection. This is the resurrection of those who died during the tribulation.

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years ended."

Followers of Christ who die before the tribulation do not come to life until after the 1,000 reign. They are resurrected during the white throne judgment.

If pre-trib rapture is true, then there would be a resurrection before the first resurrection.

How can there be a resurrection before the first resurrection?

Also, how could the rest of the dead rise to life if they already rose during the pre-trib rapture?

It's really quite simple, Neo: "first" in Revelation 20's First Resurrection is the word protos. Protos isn't limited to a meaning of sequence, but is also descriptive of rank or quality.

There are two resurrections taught by Christ in type, that is the Resurrection unto Life (which is what occurs for Tribulation Martyrs) and there is the Resurrection unto Damnation. I think we can both tyoe and sequence in the context because it is a resurrection unto life (meaning they are glorified) and it is the first (sequentially) of the two resurrections described in Revelation 20. It is no coincidence that that "second resurrection" listed is the Second Death (Resurrection unto Damnation) for those who did not live again when the Tribulation Martyrs are raised (because they are lost, not believing).

Now, we know that a sequential meaning for protos (first) is not meant to be the meaning because it simply isn't the first resurrection of Revelation:


Revelation 11:11-12 King James Version

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Not only is this resurrection a "first" resurrection in type, but it absolutely removes the concept that the first resurrection of Revelation is intended to be understood as the "First resurrection to occur."

The First Resurrection in sequence concerning the Resurrection unto Life is of course the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is the first to be resurrected in glorified form.

Furthermore, not only is the resurrection of the Two Witnesses a resurrection, it is in fact a Rapture. They die physically, are raised from the dead, and caught up to Heaven. One cannot go to Heaven in mortal flesh, these two men are glorified.

The resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is "first" sequentially in relation to the related context of the timeline of Revelation 20, not the entire Book of Revelation, and not the entire history of the Church.

So if the Two witnesses can be raptured before the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20, there is no valid argument that the Chruch is not raptured before the First Resurrection of Revelation 20.

And when we look at all relevant issues the only timing for the Rapture of the Church is prior to the Tribulation. The second point would be that we have to have physical men to produce physical descendants that will rebel against God and join ranks with Satan. These are they that are destroyed at the end of the thousand years:



Revelation 20:7-11 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



This takes place when the thousand years expire. Only Sheep survive the Tribulation physically, and only they enter into that Kingdom. Because a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. If you consider Nicodemus the only Kingdom he knew about was the Restored Kingdom of Israel of Prophecy. Christ's teaching has application to that Kingdom as well as the one you and I have entered into when we were born again.


God bless.
 
No.... Those will be the ones one earth to enter the Millennium with Christ and his church reigning over them.

Why do you like to simply guess?
I'm not guessing, I'm repeating what the Scriptures state,

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:4-5

Anyway, why is there a resurrection before the first resurrection in the pre-trib doctrine?

And why are the rest of the dead already raise to life in the pre-trib doctrine?

The Scriptures state, the rest of the dead did not come to life until after the thousand years ended.
 
It's really quite simple, Neo: "first" in Revelation 20's First Resurrection is the word protos. Protos isn't limited to a meaning of sequence, but is also descriptive of rank or quality.

There are two resurrections taught by Christ in type, that is the Resurrection unto Life (which is what occurs for Tribulation Martyrs) and there is the Resurrection unto Damnation. I think we can both tyoe and sequence in the context because it is a resurrection unto life (meaning they are glorified) and it is the first (sequentially) of the two resurrections described in Revelation 20. It is no coincidence that that "second resurrection" listed is the Second Death (Resurrection unto Damnation) for those who did not live again when the Tribulation Martyrs are raised (because they are lost, not believing).

Now, we know that a sequential meaning for protos (first) is not meant to be the meaning because it simply isn't the first resurrection of Revelation:


Revelation 11:11-12 King James Version

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Not only is this resurrection a "first" resurrection in type, but it absolutely removes the concept that the first resurrection of Revelation is intended to be understood as the "First resurrection to occur."

The First Resurrection in sequence concerning the Resurrection unto Life is of course the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is the first to be resurrected in glorified form.

Furthermore, not only is the resurrection of the Two Witnesses a resurrection, it is in fact a Rapture. They die physically, are raised from the dead, and caught up to Heaven. One cannot go to Heaven in mortal flesh, these two men are glorified.

The resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is "first" sequentially in relation to the related context of the timeline of Revelation 20, not the entire Book of Revelation, and not the entire history of the Church.

So if the Two witnesses can be raptured before the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20, there is no valid argument that the Chruch is not raptured before the First Resurrection of Revelation 20.

And when we look at all relevant issues the only timing for the Rapture of the Church is prior to the Tribulation. The second point would be that we have to have physical men to produce physical descendants that will rebel against God and join ranks with Satan. These are they that are destroyed at the end of the thousand years:



Revelation 20:7-11 King James Version

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.



This takes place when the thousand years expire. Only Sheep survive the Tribulation physically, and only they enter into that Kingdom. Because a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. If you consider Nicodemus the only Kingdom he knew about was the Restored Kingdom of Israel of Prophecy. Christ's teaching has application to that Kingdom as well as the one you and I have entered into when we were born again.


God bless.
This question will refute what you say if you understand the connection. Do you believe the Book of Life is to judge our works or to judge who has everlasting life or not?
 
What?

No evaluation of believers? No need for preparation?

Just ZAP! BAM! Now rule with me?

Seven years will be needed.... first to evaluate which believers will qualify to reign with Him. (1Cor 3:11-15)

Those seven years of preparation will be during the time of Tribulation on earth, during which those who qualified are prepared in Heaven to reign.

Do you simply go by your feelings and what little voices tell you?

Test the spirits......

If God is not "readying" you now no amount of tribulation is going to help.

Those who find themselves in the Tribulation will find themselves under strong delusion to believe the lie.

Some seem to be under strong delusion already, but don't worry, The Day of the Lord will not come on you as a thief in the night as it will for those who are not raptured.

;)


God bless.
 
This question will refute what you say if you understand the connection. Do you believe the Book of Life is to judge our works or to judge who has everlasting life or not?

You have completely ignored my response to the point you wanted to address, lol.

Would you mind responding to that point? Then I will respond to this one. The truth is I will respond to it anyway once I work my way through all of the responses.


God bless.
 
Sorry Gary Mac, John states that those who deny that Jesus is the Christ are not sons of God, nor can they be, because sons of God are made by the very declaration that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God.
Again so that you won't miss the replies that you say I dont reply to

I know' and it is most evident with people as yourself dont believe Jesus was the Christ but believe he was a god instead.
It isn't me that needs to feel better about my doctrine.
That is the problem. It is your doctrine not His. That is why you are comfortable in it. To be of Christ as Jesus was of Christ with Christ in you as well is a bit unnerving for your doctrine you have established from your own.
No amount of posting is going to change the fact you deny that Jesus is the Christ. I know it, you know it, and God knows it.
Again, You know it, I know it, God knows it, that you falsely accuse me of denying Jesus was the Christ. A flat out lie.
Why you would continue to peddle your religion among Christians is the only mystery here.
Again -- the same reason Jesus did, that ye might be saved.
But it isn't really a mystery, is it, because we know that the Gospel of Christ is foolishness to them that are perishing.
Not for we who has Gods same mind as He demands of me. Your god may not demand that of you but the God Jesus prayed to for me to have Gods same mind does demand that of us.

To you the way of Christ to have from God that what Jesus had from Him as He sent Jesus to show you what that is to be in the Father yourself is foolishness for you just as you say it is.
God bless.
 
I'm not guessing, I'm repeating what the Scriptures sate,

"
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:4-5


Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:4-5

They will reign as well. But, as priests of God on earth, not as His Bride will. Only the church is the Bride. Only those in the church who "overcome" will reign with Christ.

All others who refused to believe (throughout history) will be in the second resurrection and then thrown into the Lake of Fire. After 1000 years when the Millennium ends that will take place.
 
Yes you will stick with Paul for he is your god and the only god you can relate to as a sinner, he was one to and preached it.

Ill stick with Jesus and lead me to the One who did take me out from this world where all things became new, a new heaven and earth is revealed that I may be the righteousness of God in Christ as Jesus was the righteousness of God in Christ, we are anointed of God in righteousness instead of Paul who was unrighteous and a sinner instead.

The topic is "Rapture, yes or no."

Not Gary Mac and his undying need to make Gary Mac and the religion of Gary Macians the center of every thread.


God bless.
 
You have completely ignored my response to the point you wanted to address, lol.

Would you mind responding to that point? Then I will respond to this one. The truth is I will respond to it anyway once I work my way through all of the responses.


God bless.
OK, I'll expound upon the point.

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
John 5:28‭-‬29

You are discussing the resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgement. This is discussed in John 5:28-29.

John makes it clear there is an hour, not two different hours, but one hour that the dead will come out of the tombs. They come together. Those who will be mentioned in the book of life and those who are not. Let's confirm this:

"
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 20:11‭-‬15

There will be the dead who are found in the book of life and those who are not. Both the righteousness and unrighteous are at the great white throne. This is when the Book of Life is opened. This is when those before the tribulation will have their eternal destination decided.

For, they can't be pre-trib raptured to life before the Book of Life is opened.

They have to be resurrected when the Book of Life is opened, not thousands of years before the book of life is opened.
 
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:4-5

They will reign as well. But, as priests of God on earth, not as His Bride will. Only the church is the Bride. Only those in the church who "overcome" will reign with Christ.

All others who refused to believe (throughout history) will be in the second resurrection and then thrown into the Lake of Fire. After 1000 years when the Millennium ends that will take place.
The church is not raptured before the tribulation. Thus, those who overcome are the one's from the Church and the one's who died that were in the church.

What do those in the Church have to overcome in a pre-trib rapture?

They obviously have to overcome what is written in the book of Revelations. The point that the church has to overcome, mentioned in all the letters, is great evidence against pre-trib rapture.

Also,

"Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
John 5:28‭-‬29

You are discussing the resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgement. This is discussed in John 5:28-29.

John makes it clear there is an hour, not two different hours, but one hour that the dead will come out of the tombs. They come together. Those who will be mentioned in the book of life and those who are not. Let's confirm this:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Revelation 20:11‭-‬15

There will be the dead who are found in the book of life and those who are not. Both the righteousness and unrighteous are at the great white throne. This is when the Book of Life is opened. This is when those before the tribulation will have their eternal destination decided.

For, they can't be pre-trib raptured to life before the Book of Life is opened.

They have to be resurrected when the Book of Life is opened, not thousands of years before the book of life is opened.
 
The topic is "Rapture, yes or no."
Yep and my reply to it was -- Everyone who is born again has been taken out of this world by God Himself. We are no longer of it, for He reveals a new heaven and new earth where old things did pass away and all things became new.

Exact same thing happened in Jesus in Matt 3:16. The reason it hasn't happened in you because you serve a different God from the One who opens it all up Jesus and us all who has received from Him His same mind. It is all new ground for those with such limited knowledge that poertains only to the things of this world and not His Kingdom that is within you who is Spirit. See Jesus statement in Luke 17:20-21 how one is taken out, or raptured as you call it.

You really should start reading the posts before you reply in ignorance, it makes ya look kinda? Well you know!
Not Gary Mac and his undying need to make Gary Mac and the religion of Gary Macians the center of every thread.
I never saw Jesus as a Macian as you say he is.

All I do is repeat what Jesus said you should be in the Father and Christ is the center of every thread.
God bless.
One of us is of Christ, the other of is of Paul instead.
 
You lie when you say I do not believe was Christ. He was indeed.

I speak only truth when I say you deny Jesus is the Christ.

Not "was Christ," but THE Christ, the only One.

You know this, Gary Mac, and you have to be deceitful in everything you post. That should bother you greatly.


God bless.
 
I speak only truth when I say you deny Jesus is the Christ.
Cant be any other way, I have His same mind, the mind of Christ.
Not "was Christ," but THE Christ, the only One.
There is only one Christ and that is Gods anointing in man.
You know this, Gary Mac, and you have to be deceitful in everything you post. That should bother you greatly.
I do know this very well, as I said, I have the mind of Christ who God Himself demands of you as well. But sense you deny the Christ there is no way you can be Christian or even remotely Christ like, that is what a Christian is, Christ like or like the Christ as Jesus was like the father as well as we all are who are of Christ. Anointed of God, Born of God, born again as God reveals Himself and all of His heaven in Jesus in Matt 3:16. You just flat out deny the Christ to have Gods same anointing as He demands of you If you are to be in Him as Jesus was in Him.

You just dont know what it is to be a son of God is all.
God bless.
 
This question will refute what you say if you understand the connection. Do you believe the Book of Life is to judge our works or to judge who has everlasting life or not?

It's not used to judge anyone, it is simply a matter of whether someone is in there or not:


Revelation 20:12 KJV
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Revelation 20:15 KJV
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



The "Books" men will be judged according to will be the Word of God. When they are judged, it is very possible that they will be blotted from the book of life at this time. It is my view based on David's plea that all men are in the Book of Life and are blotted out at one point or another. That might be at their physical death or it might be at the Great White Throne. I lean towards the Great White Throne because I believe men still go to the Just side of Sheol/Hades today. Murdered infants in the womb, for example.

As far as missing a connection all I see is a demand to focus on a point and then a retreat from the point when it is discussed for the purpose of focusing on that point, lol.


God bless.
 
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