RCC views of Eastern Orthodoxy?

[Southsider071]

I was watching this video on youtube, and it would see as if Roman Catholics see Greek Orthodox as closer to themselves than the Orthodox do.


Do CARM's Roman Catholics agree with the general thought that the RCC and Greek Orthodox are close? Or do they see the great chasm between the churches that the Greeks see?

 

[Atemi]

Or do they see the great chasm between the churches that the Greeks see?

If "one, true churchism" is true, then there is a great chasm. The Orthodox are less inclined to play footsie and water down what is really at stake just to stick it to the Protestants.

If the Orthodox Church is Christ's one, true church...then the Catholic Church is a fraud and a sham that has been masquerading as the Bride of Christ for many centuries. It means that Catholic bishops and priests have been lying to their people for just as long. How lightly will Jesus Christ treat any promiscuous woman who goes around masquerading as His Bride?

Basically, the Orthodox tend to be a lot more honest with the situation.

 

[balshan]

I was watching this video on youtube, and it would see as if Roman Catholics see Greek Orthodox as closer to themselves than the Orthodox do.


Do CARM's Roman Catholics agree with the general thought that the RCC and Greek Orthodox are close? Or do they see the great chasm between the churches that the Greeks see?

They are happy to use them to support their false doctrines and just as happy to kick them to the kerb when they don't agree.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

I was watching this video on youtube, and it would see as if Roman Catholics see Greek Orthodox as closer to themselves than the Orthodox do.


Do CARM's Roman Catholics agree with the general thought that the RCC and Greek Orthodox are close? Or do they see the great chasm between the churches that the Greeks see?

The ‘Orthodox’ sects (and there are many different ones) are outside the Body of Christ. They are not identical in belief and practice to the Catholic Church, even if you discount their rejection of the truth of the Papacy. They reject the Filioque and the true doctrine of God's simplicity, among other things.

Their sacraments may be valid, but they are illicit. Any truths they have, they have obtained from the Catholic Church. They are not in "communion" with the Catholic Church but are in schism.

Of course, Bergoglio believes them to be part of his church and it would be a grave sin to "proselytize" to them and convert them since he doesn't believe the Catholic Church is necessary, like most other Novus Ordites.

 

[Southsider071]

The ‘Orthodox’ sects (and there are many different ones) are outside the Body of Christ. They are not identical in belief and practice to the Catholic Church, even if you discount their rejection of the truth of the Papacy. They reject the Filioque and the true doctrine of God's simplicity, among other things.

Their sacraments may be valid, but they are illicit. Any truths they have, they have obtained from the Catholic Church. They are not in "communion" with the Catholic Church but are in schism.

Of course, Bergoglio believes them to be part of his church and it would be a grave sin to "proselytize" to them and convert them since he doesn't believe the Catholic Church is necessary, like most other Novus Ordites.

From the linked video I posted, as well as what I've seen elsewhere online, I'd say your views are different than most RC's in this regard.

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

From the linked video I posted, as well as what I've seen elsewhere online, I'd say your views are different than most RC's in this regard.

The majority of "Catholics", I would say, regard the Eastern schismatics as part of the big tent "Church of Christ", and that they stand in no need of conversion to the Catholic Church. Bergoglio, as is his custom, signed a common statement of faith with one of the many schismatic leaders in which he states that his Novus Ordo sect and the Eastern schismatic sects are in communion with each other.

This, of course, is completely contradictory to the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. I'll just provide one example.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino”, 1441: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Novus Ordo "Catholics" have become Universalists. They don't believe the Catholic Church is necessary and they have completely rejected what the Catholic Church has consistently taught for almost two thousand years. They have gladly accepted the new, modernist, humanist, naturalist, religiously indifferent, man centered religion that is the Novus Ordo sect.

 

[ziapueblo]

The ‘Orthodox’ sects (and there are many different ones) are outside the Body of Christ.

The Orthodox Church is one. There are no "sects".

They are not identical in belief and practice to the Catholic Church, even if you discount their rejection of the truth of the Papacy.

I agree with this, although, both East and West, despite having a different Liturgical life, spirituality and theology, remained one in faith for more than a millennium.

They reject the Filioque and the true doctrine of God's simplicity, among other things.

Not only us Orthodox. Byzantine Catholic Churches in communion with Rome do not use the Filioque when they recite the Creed. Also, on the second Sunday of Great Lent, they will venerate St Gregory Palamas Liturgically. This upsets many Roman Catholics. Another thing that makes many Roman Catholics cringe is that St Photios the Great of Constantinople is in the Great Horologion of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church. The Melkite's are in communion with Rome! They also venerate St Mark of Ephesus.

Their sacraments may be valid, but they are illicit.

Because of communion with Rome?

Any truths they have, they have obtained from the Catholic Church.

This is laughable! What the Orthodox have obtained is because of the Traditions handed down to us.

Of course, Bergoglio believes them to be part of his church and it would be a grave sin to "proselytize" to them and convert them since he doesn't believe the Catholic Church is necessary, like most other Novus Ordites.

Not only Francis but many other Popes of Rome.

 

[Atemi]

Any truths they have, they have obtained from the Catholic Church.

This is laughable! What the Orthodox have obtained is because of the Traditions handed down to us.

You: We are the one, true church!
Them: No...we are!
You: No, we are, so there!
Them: The early church fathers all testify that we are totally correct and you broke off from us!
You: No, the early church fathers clearly were members of our church and not yours!
Them: No, we are the only ones to faithfully pass on the faith of the Apostles!
You: No you aren't. It is obvious when we look at Tradition, that it was us alone who did so.
Them: To deny my church is the one, true church is to call Christ a liar! How dare you!
You: Au contraire, God says that we are incapable of doctrinal error but you guys are wrought with false doctrines!

Both of you: The proof is the testimony of Tradition that was handed down untouched that only our church leaders can tell us what it is!

 

[ziapueblo]

You: We are the one, true church!
Them: No...we are!
You: No, we are, so there!
Them: The early church fathers all testify that we are totally correct and you broke off from us!
You: No, the early church fathers clearly were members of our church and not yours!
Them: No, we are the only ones to faithfully pass on the faith of the Apostles!
You: No you aren't. It is obvious when we look at Tradition, that it was us alone who did so.
Them: To deny my church is the one, true church is to call Christ a liar! How dare you!
You: Au contraire, God says that we are incapable of doctrinal error but you guys are wrought with false doctrines!

Both of you: The proof is the testimony of Tradition that was handed down untouched that only our church leaders can tell us what it is!

Sorry, but I never said the above so . . .

 

[Atemi]

Sorry, but I never said the above so . . .

I clearly was not quoting you, so how you made that mistake is beyond me.

So you don't believe your church is Christ's one, true church and you believe your church possibly teaches false doctrines?

I just want to clear this up so I accurately understand your position.

 

[ziapueblo]

So you don't believe your church is Christ's one, true church and you believe your church possibly teaches false doctrines?

As an Orthodox Christian, yes, I believe that we are the "one, true church". As far as Catholics go, are we in schism with them? Yes. However, the schism if from within the Church, not outside of it. The Orthodox acknowledge this. One only has to read the great Orthodox theologian Oliver Clement's book You Are Peter: An Orthodox Theologian's Reflection on the Exercise of Papal Primacy.

Now, that being said, is there work that needs to be done between East and West to hash this out? For sure!

I just want to clear this up so I accurately understand your position.

Of course

I think it is ok to discuss this with you on the Catholic threads. I am only allowed to debate with Catholics here, not non-Catholic Christians. However, we are not debating so I think its ok lol!

 

[romishpopishorganist]

I was watching this video on youtube, and it would see as if Roman Catholics see Greek Orthodox as closer to themselves than the Orthodox do.


Do CARM's Roman Catholics agree with the general thought that the RCC and Greek Orthodox are close? Or do they see the great chasm between the churches that the Greeks see?

I see the Catholics and Orthodox as no more than in schism. Reunion with the Orthodox is possible--far more possible than reunion with the Protestants.

I can't speak to why the Orthodox feel as they feel, but I would see us as much closer to them than perhaps they see their relationship to us. They have valid Apostolic Succession, a valid priesthood, valid Sacraments. They are essentially Catholic. We just have differences on some things.

 

[ziapueblo]

can't speak to why the Orthodox feel as they feel, but I would see us as much closer to them than perhaps they see their relationship to us.

For us Orthodox, to be honest, it is the role of the Pope of Rome which is at the forefront. After a 6/7 hundred years of being out of communion, I think there is a little distrust among us.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

For us Orthodox, to be honest, it is the role of the Pope of Rome which is at the forefront. After a 6/7 hundred years of being out of communion, I think there is a little distrust among us.

Yes, it is true that the Orthodox have always understood papal primacy differently than the west does. I do not blame them.

The problem is that the West still has not worked out exactly what the precise nature of the relationship of the episcopacy is to the papacy. Vatican II attempted some work on this subject, but the issue is not yet resolved or clarified. Papal primacy does not entail that the pope should appoint bishops at will, remove bishops at will, or otherwise micromanage the Church, yet this is what the primacy has become in the West. This is not biblical and I do not blame the Orthodox for objecting to it.

 

[Atemi]

Reunion with the Orthodox is possible--far more possible than reunion with the Protestants.

Who do you think it is that will finally admit they have been lying to their people for centuries and are not Christ's one, true church?

Your pals in Rome?

Or is it you expect it is the Orthodox who will have to see the light and come back to your sect on bended knee?

We know the answer.

 

[Atemi]

The problem is that the West still has not worked out exactly what the precise nature of the relationship of the episcopacy is to the papacy.

How utterly inept. Supposedly 2000 years later, and your sect still does not know what is going on.

Maybe they will get around to that when they finally get around to providing us all the official infallible list of all Catholic dogmas that RCs say they believe.

 

[balshan]

For us Orthodox, to be honest, it is the role of the Pope of Rome which is at the forefront. After a 6/7 hundred years of being out of communion, I think there is a little distrust among us.

But there is more than the papacy, you do have some beliefs that are different as well. Would you give them up, would you bow down to the pope as the only leader?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

How utterly inept. Supposedly 2000 years later, and your sect still does not know what is going on.

Given that the Church didn't work out how to speak with clarity about the relationship of Christ to the Father until 325AD, I don't see what your problem is that the Church has yet to speak with clarity about the precise nature of the relationship of the bishops to the pope.

Maybe they will get around to that when they finally get around to providing us all the official infallible list of all Catholic dogmas that RCs say they believe.

Or maybe they will get around to it when Protestants finally get around to providing us with all the official God Breathed teachings of the Bible?

 

[Nondenom40]

Given that the Church didn't work out how to speak with clarity about the relationship of Christ to the Father until 325AD, I don't see what your problem is that the Church has yet to speak with clarity about the precise nature of the relationship of the bishops to the pope.

Or maybe they will get around to it when Protestants finally get around to providing us with all the official God Breathed teachings of the Bible?

Given that the Church didn't work out how to speak with clarity about the relationship of Christ to the Father until 325AD,

Nonsense. They met to meet the Arian heresy head on. The Arians have a flawed view of Christ not those that argued against Arianism. Athanasius argued Jesus' relationship with the Father from Hebrews. If he didn't know how to speak with clarity on that relationship how then did he argue it? And they were successful because the right side won.

I don't see what your problem is that the Church has yet to speak with clarity about the precise nature of the relationship of the bishops to the pope.

Thanks for admitting that your church is confused regarding its own church structure.

Or maybe they will get around to it when Protestants finally get around to providing us with all the official God Breathed teachings of the Bible?

Start reading reading in Genesis and stop when you finish Revelation. Of course you can leave out the seven apocryphal books your church added at Trent. That'll save you some time.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Nonsense. They met to meet the Arian heresy head on. The Arians have a flawed view of Christ not those that argued against Arianism. Athanasius argued Jesus' relationship with the Father from Hebrews. If he didn't know how to speak with clarity on that relationship how then did he argue it? And they were successful because the right side won.

Athanasius provided the Univeral Church with the language to speak with clarity. Much of what he said--became the basis for the Creed--and the definitions at Nicaea.

And you are correct. I do not dispute what you are saying. Yes, the Church needed to meet the Arian heresy head on. Note by the way--the Church is fully united here. There is only one Church. There aren't hundreds of sects responding individually to the heresy, there is one Church with one recognized set of leaders united under the Bishop of Rome.

Thanks for admitting that your church is confused regarding its own church structure.

I admitted no such thing. We are not confused as to who and what the leadership are. We just do not yet speak with absolute clarity on one particular issue: that of the precise nature of the relationship of the pope to the bishops. Reason? We haven't had to do that yet. There has not been a controversy that effected the unity of the Church, necessitating the Church speak to it.

Start reading in Genesis and stop when you finish Revelation. Of course you can leave out the seven apocryphal books your church added at Trent. That'll save you some time.

We didn't "add" apocryphal books to Scripture, we clarified the status of the Deutero-Canonicals.