Reality

Aaron32

Well-known member
I am not talking about atheism, but the fact that the Bible is rooted in reality, since it is about a people that still exist, and took place in countries and cities that still exist and there is archaeological evidence for many others, as well as some people mentioned in the Bible. But the BoM is just a work of pious fiction, except for the parts quoted from the actual Bible. And it has no basis in reality.

Forcing to look at myself archeological based evidence to support Christianity in general has been interesting. There's clearly new horizons to explore. You criticize Mormons, but when we actually address the real scholars we find that their claims and conclusions seem to be quite different than yours. It makes one question how you define "reality". Sure, places might exist, but the question is does your interpretation of their beliefs line up? Do we have the evidence that events claimed actually occured?

I would invite you to watch this video and defend your claims. A true truth seeker, that which you ask Mormons to do, would embrace the book these men have produced and see how your "reality" measures up. You place yourself in the position as a Mormon to find scholarly justification to defend your beliefs, or simply admit your beliefs aren't based in "reality" either.


Below is a summary of my notes with a loose time index to give some highlights you can look for. I have links to other YouTube videos that explore further on the subjects they refer to, but due to forum rules I can't post them all. I did make notes to those video as also, highlighted in blue, so I apologize for the confusion.

14:30 Ezekiel 26 Nebacanezzar didn't take Tyre and it's a failed prophecy
16:00-ish People are still Christian despite the scientific evidence

17:00 Christian Apologetics are not a friend of academics
20:32 Apologetics survive because of tunnel media
Insulate yourself with psuedo-intellectuals
23:50 It's difficult to be the tip of the spear and the handle.
24:50 I don't have 2 years to teach you
27:00 People still believe beyond evidence
28:20 Christian Apologetics is like Christian Rock music
31:00 Apologetics makes Christians feel better about their beliefs
31:00 Special pleading (1 in a million chance)
33:00 Isn't it possible that….
Confirmation Bias
Start with the conclusion that you believe is true, filling in the blanks
37:30 Relativism on Spiritual Experience
38:50 Pre-commitment to the Bible that if something sounds weird you reject the meaning despite what's obvious (confirmation bias)
40:00 Book Overview
45:00 Does the Bible work as a historical document? Scholars say no
52:00 The Book of Genesis was Plagerized from the Enuma Elish
55:00 Apologist Argument: We should believe the Bible or we'll burn for eternity, thus they must prove Bible infallability
56:10 RCC accepts genesis as mythology, but other Christians can't do that.
59:30 Christian Fundamentalist finds scholarship interesting, but completely rejects it
1:09:00 God as a corpreal body - Francesca Stavrakopoulou
Interview -
Yahweh is the son of El
Another Interview
24:20 What is the text doing?
Israelite vs Mepotamia
26:40 5th - 6th century - religious agenda to become monotheistic
Once in the promised land - polytheism is a problem
7th-8th century - Yehweh alone

34:40 Ashera - the mother God
Further detail
Associated with Trees - life
37:00 The evolution into monotheism
53:00 Melchizedek
55:00 Monolatry


1:12:00 Dead Sea Scrolls Esoteric Perspective vs Linguistic
1:17:00 Dealing with Supernatural experiences
1:20:00 Faith & Fear Parts 1 & 2- how psychology works (placebo effect)
Elicit Feelings - Perfect Father/Sense of Awe (associate with a sound)
Faith as a positive
Agency - give a purpose
The emotions are real -

1:21:00 Hypocrisy of apologists attacking other religions based on scholarship
 
Forcing to look at myself archeological based evidence to support Christianity in general has been interesting. There's clearly new horizons to explore. You criticize Mormons, but when we actually address the real scholars we find that their claims and conclusions seem to be quite different than yours. It makes one question how you define "reality". Sure, places might exist, but the question is does your interpretation of their beliefs line up? Do we have the evidence that events claimed actually occured?

I would invite you to watch this video and defend your claims. A true truth seeker, that which you ask Mormons to do, would embrace the book these men have produced and see how your "reality" measures up. You place yourself in the position as a Mormon to find scholarly justification to defend your beliefs, or simply admit your beliefs aren't based in "reality" either.


Below is a summary of my notes with a loose time index to give some highlights you can look for. I have links to other YouTube videos that explore further on the subjects they refer to, but due to forum rules I can't post them all. I did make notes to those video as also, highlighted in blue, so I apologize for the confusion.

14:30 Ezekiel 26 Nebacanezzar didn't take Tyre and it's a failed prophecy
16:00-ish People are still Christian despite the scientific evidence

17:00 Christian Apologetics are not a friend of academics
20:32 Apologetics survive because of tunnel media
Insulate yourself with psuedo-intellectuals
23:50 It's difficult to be the tip of the spear and the handle.
24:50 I don't have 2 years to teach you
27:00 People still believe beyond evidence
28:20 Christian Apologetics is like Christian Rock music
31:00 Apologetics makes Christians feel better about their beliefs
31:00 Special pleading (1 in a million chance)
33:00 Isn't it possible that….
Confirmation Bias
Start with the conclusion that you believe is true, filling in the blanks
37:30 Relativism on Spiritual Experience
38:50 Pre-commitment to the Bible that if something sounds weird you reject the meaning despite what's obvious (confirmation bias)
40:00 Book Overview
45:00 Does the Bible work as a historical document? Scholars say no
52:00 The Book of Genesis was Plagerized from the Enuma Elish
55:00 Apologist Argument: We should believe the Bible or we'll burn for eternity, thus they must prove Bible infallability
56:10 RCC accepts genesis as mythology, but other Christians can't do that.
59:30 Christian Fundamentalist finds scholarship interesting, but completely rejects it
1:09:00 God as a corpreal body - Francesca Stavrakopoulou
Interview -
Yahweh is the son of El
Another Interview
24:20 What is the text doing?
Israelite vs Mepotamia
26:40 5th - 6th century - religious agenda to become monotheistic
Once in the promised land - polytheism is a problem
7th-8th century - Yehweh alone

34:40 Ashera - the mother God
Further detail
Associated with Trees - life
37:00 The evolution into monotheism
53:00 Melchizedek
55:00 Monolatry


1:12:00 Dead Sea Scrolls Esoteric Perspective vs Linguistic
1:17:00 Dealing with Supernatural experiences
1:20:00 Faith & Fear Parts 1 & 2- how psychology works (placebo effect)
Elicit Feelings - Perfect Father/Sense of Awe (associate with a sound)
Faith as a positive
Agency - give a purpose
The emotions are real -

1:21:00 Hypocrisy of apologists attacking other religions based on scholarship
The forum needs another critical thinker who remains a theist. Welcome! Also, kudos for the courage to abandon tradition for truth. Your mind is going to grow like never before for daring to believe the truth despite everything you were taught. Although, you will not be very popular for it. Ha ha! Being popular is overrated.
 
Forcing to look at myself archeological based evidence to support Christianity in general has been interesting. There's clearly new horizons to explore. You criticize Mormons, but when we actually address the real scholars we find that their claims and conclusions seem to be quite different than yours. It makes one question how you define "reality". Sure, places might exist, but the question is does your interpretation of their beliefs line up? Do we have the evidence that events claimed actually occured?

I would invite you to watch this video and defend your claims. A true truth seeker, that which you ask Mormons to do, would embrace the book these men have produced and see how your "reality" measures up. You place yourself in the position as a Mormon to find scholarly justification to defend your beliefs, or simply admit your beliefs aren't based in "reality" either.


Below is a summary of my notes with a loose time index to give some highlights you can look for. I have links to other YouTube videos that explore further on the subjects they refer to, but due to forum rules I can't post them all. I did make notes to those video as also, highlighted in blue, so I apologize for the confusion.

14:30 Ezekiel 26 Nebacanezzar didn't take Tyre and it's a failed prophecy
16:00-ish People are still Christian despite the scientific evidence

17:00 Christian Apologetics are not a friend of academics
20:32 Apologetics survive because of tunnel media
Insulate yourself with psuedo-intellectuals
23:50 It's difficult to be the tip of the spear and the handle.
24:50 I don't have 2 years to teach you
27:00 People still believe beyond evidence
28:20 Christian Apologetics is like Christian Rock music
31:00 Apologetics makes Christians feel better about their beliefs
31:00 Special pleading (1 in a million chance)
33:00 Isn't it possible that….
Confirmation Bias
Start with the conclusion that you believe is true, filling in the blanks
37:30 Relativism on Spiritual Experience
38:50 Pre-commitment to the Bible that if something sounds weird you reject the meaning despite what's obvious (confirmation bias)
40:00 Book Overview
45:00 Does the Bible work as a historical document? Scholars say no
52:00 The Book of Genesis was Plagerized from the Enuma Elish
55:00 Apologist Argument: We should believe the Bible or we'll burn for eternity, thus they must prove Bible infallability
56:10 RCC accepts genesis as mythology, but other Christians can't do that.
59:30 Christian Fundamentalist finds scholarship interesting, but completely rejects it
1:09:00 God as a corpreal body - Francesca Stavrakopoulou
Interview -
Yahweh is the son of El
Another Interview
24:20 What is the text doing?
Israelite vs Mepotamia
26:40 5th - 6th century - religious agenda to become monotheistic
Once in the promised land - polytheism is a problem
7th-8th century - Yehweh alone

34:40 Ashera - the mother God
Further detail
Associated with Trees - life
37:00 The evolution into monotheism
53:00 Melchizedek
55:00 Monolatry


1:12:00 Dead Sea Scrolls Esoteric Perspective vs Linguistic
1:17:00 Dealing with Supernatural experiences
1:20:00 Faith & Fear Parts 1 & 2- how psychology works (placebo effect)
Elicit Feelings - Perfect Father/Sense of Awe (associate with a sound)
Faith as a positive
Agency - give a purpose
The emotions are real -

1:21:00 Hypocrisy of apologists attacking other religions based on scholarship
So I have watched half of it so far (around one hour) and frankly, they do not say a whole lot other than repeat over and over that christian apologetics does not meet the standards of modern scholarly works. They could have said that in two minutes, recommend the book, and saved me an hour of my time. Nevertheless, they are right. I learned that on my own by stepping outside the bubble of christian apologetics and investigating what scholars have learned about different topics.

Consequently, I am no longer a traditional christian, the Bible-literalist, the fundamentalist type, to whom the majority of christians belong. Instead, I am the original gnostic christian, esoterist, theosophist, critical thinking type. I qualify my current beliefs as “original” based on my investigation of the early christians who arguably held gnostic tenets. Basically, they interpreted the Bible which suggests that they knew back then the Bible was NOT a history book. Instead, it arguably is a mystery book possessing underlying truths.

Whereas, most atheist scholars are pointing out the historical flaws in the Bible, and stopping there, I am pointing out what the Bible meant to the original Jewish-christians, and before them, the royal cult of Judaism, and before them, the sages or wise men living in Mesopotamia. To me the Bible carries forward the archaic wisdom which existed at first recorded human history, available today in cuneiform tablets. For example, the war in heaven when the dragon, namely, Tiamat, is slain and whose body is used to produce earth and humans, sounds very much like,

“And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.” (Rev. 12:3)​
Or,

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. (Luke 10:18)​
How do we know if the parting of the red sea by Moses is not an allusion to the dividing of Tiamat (also meaning sea) because in both stories righteous humans are the result. So just as God’s people pass through the waters on their way to the promised land, so do righteous humans pass through the divided body of Tiamat (ie., the sea) to join the gods (Elohim) in heaven.

How do we know if the sacrament of eucharist is not based on the allusion to humans feeding on the body of the dragon, Tiamat, which parallels the idea of the body of christ dying for sin and separated from heaven “to [become] earth”? The Hebrews possibly rewrote it as manna from heaven as part of the Exodus story and later christians rewrote it as, This is my body, eat it and remember me. Remember what? Maybe that matter is the body of a divine entity who was cast out of heaven “To [become] earth”. It is like Paul said, the Bible is useful for instruction, but I would subjoin, when wielded by proficient hands.
Therefore, there is a case to be made that the Hebrews merely rewrote the ancient wisdom into their myths using Hebrew words. Not many are making this case, that I am aware of. I would really like a book, —a scholarly book, demonstrating the parallels of the archaic wisdom with biblical texts rather than a book merely criticizing the historical validity of the Bible. If you come across any of the former books let me know. So far, all I have found are those works associated with GRS Mead, who was associated with Madam Blavansky (the author of “The Secret Doctrine”) and her theosophical society about a hundred years ago. His books are great reads, BTW.
 
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...For example, the war in heaven when the dragon, namely, Tiamat, is slain and whose body is used to produce earth and humans, sounds very much like,

“And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth.” (Rev. 12:3)​
Or,

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. (Luke 10:18)​
How do we know if the parting of the red sea by Moses is not an allusion to the dividing of Tiamat (also meaning sea) because in both stories righteous humans are the result. So just as God’s people pass through the waters on their way to the promised land, so do righteous humans pass through the divided body of Tiamat (ie., the sea) to join the gods (Elohim) in heaven.
Rev 12:3 likely refers to the Leviathan, which appears elsewhere in the Bible, and comes from tne Canaanite Lotan, but the parallel to Tiamat has been long recognised, and they probably have the same source.

Rev 12:9 is also about the Leviathan, and not the snake in the Garden of Eden, which was just a talking snake.
 
Rev 12:3 likely refers to the Leviathan, which appears elsewhere in the Bible, and comes from tne Canaanite Lotan, but the parallel to Tiamat has been long recognised, and they probably have the same source.

Rev 12:9 is also about the Leviathan, and not the snake in the Garden of Eden, which was just a talking snake.
The Bible is rich in meaning but few today, if any, have a clue what it means. We need more scholars comparing/contrasting the myths of the Mesopotamia and the symbolism used in Judeo-christian scriptures.

I just find it very interesting that the dragon Tiamat in heaven was defeated and used by the ten Mesopotamian gods to make earth and humans who then subsequently become gods themselves.

Then in the two Biblical creation myths, the author has YHWH, whose name means “to exist” forming the bodies of humans out of earth or matter. Parallel to that is Elohim (the Holy Spirit) manifesting itself in physical creation: water, earth, sun, moon, stars, animals, plants, and humans, —manifesting itself as seven “Days” or sages.

It is almost like the Judeo-christian version wants us to remeber that seven of the ten Mesopotamian gods (“seven heads, ten diadems”) descended into flesh themselves in order to lead all humans back to heaven (ie., the intelligible world) where Anu, the supreme God dwells.

The names of gods or god is unimportant, Anu may equal the Most High, given that there are many languages on earth but the point of both myths may be that earth or matter is the result of a calamitous rebellion among cosmic forces, and that although born into ignorance, suffering, and death, humans are to remember from where they originally belonged, ie., among the gods, therefore, the “seven” gods (elohim) who defeated Tiamat have descended in humanly form to lead humans to their original source in heaven. Presumably, Yeshua was one of the “seven” who “descended”.

There is a lot of speculation on my part, a more scholarly analysis is warranted, but I can faintly see the parallels. As Paul wrote, “we look through a glass dimly”.

My fellow students in radiology class (a long time ago) used to call our teacher “the shadow doctor” because he could see things in radiographic images that nobody else could see. Of course, he was the expert and we were the students. It is why he made the big bucks. Haha! But here I am still guessing at shadows. Ha ha!
 
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We need more scholars comparing/contrasting the myths of the Mesopotamia and the symbolism used in Judeo-christian scriptures.
David Rohl (A Test of Time etc) has come up with some interesting theories, connecting the initial chapters of Genesis with early Sumerian and pre-Sumerian history.

Later Sumerian history, including later Sumerian, Balylonian and Assyrian religion, i.e. post-flood religion, doesn't figure much in the bible except as sourcing the origins of false religion (as symbolized in the bible by the dragon/serpent) antithetic to true religion descending down the generations from Adam through Noah to Abraham etc.

When Abraham was called out of Ur by God, Mesopotamia seems to have been given over to idolatry.
 
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Later Sumerian history, including later Sumerian, Balylonian and Assyrian religion, i.e. post-flood religion, doesn't figure much in the bible except as sourcing the origins of false religion (as symbolized in the bible by the dragon/serpent) antithetic to true religion descending down the generations from Adam through Noah to Abraham etc.
Actually the defeat of a sea monster is quite a common motif from that region and era. For example Lotan was defeated by the storm god Hadad-Baʿal in the Ugaritic Baal Cycle, Tiamat was slain by the storm-god Marduk, Illuyanka was a serpentine dragon slain by Tarḫunz the Hittite god of sky and storm. Yahweh defeating the Leviathan is the Biblical version.
 
Actually the defeat of a sea monster is quite a common motif from that region and era. For example Lotan was defeated by the storm god Hadad-Baʿal in the Ugaritic Baal Cycle, Tiamat was slain by the storm-god Marduk, Illuyanka was a serpentine dragon slain by Tarḫunz the Hittite god of sky and storm. Yahweh defeating the Leviathan is the Biblical version.
Nearly all ba'al/El/YHWH etc. religions in those regions, excepting perhaps (variations on) Inanna/Ishtar/goddess/nature worship which likely predates Adam and Eve by a long margin (Adam and Eve currently dated to about 5th/6th millennium BC) is centred on the true religion of the Adamites/Sethites that derived from the Garden of Eden.

So the history of religion (that is apart from nature religion which is axiomatically antithetic to Adamite religion which disowned the idea of the female as lord of herself) is really a history of the corruption of Adamite religion, and its later recovery by the Hebrews.

Each tribe or nation mutated the true religion by deifying ancestors, by creating new gods out of old gods, who to varying degrees inherited the characteristics of the ancient God/gods (the single Adamitic God seems to have been early corrupted into three analogous deities by the Sumerians and whose temples were situate in different cities). Also the ancient nature religion became fused into the religious systems of some Sumerian cities and also famously Babylon to create unholy religious syncretism. This is why Babylon is condemned as the mother of harlots in the bible.

So whereas it is undoubtedly true that Ugaritic/El and Hebrew/YHWH religion have many features & motifs in common, and many parallels (Ugaritic El being derived from Ea/Enki of ancient Mesopotamian religion) it doesn't invalidate YHWH religion because not everything about Ugaritic religion was untrue. As Paul said in Rom 1:21 , "although they knew God." Rather the Canaanite inhabitants of Ugarit corrupted the true religion and spread their corruption abroad, as also did the Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians etc.

YHWH religion entailed the separation of what was true in Ugaritic religion from what was false: i.e tribal deific additions and tribal myths, which were corrupted from previous motifs, to suite national aspirations (but perhaps also preserved eternal truths) and also in the importation of nature/goddess worship: Athirat, known in the Bible as Asherah, and the war goddesses Anat and Astarte.

The idea of the civilizing and educating El/YHWH as lord of creation (nature), and of chaos, is obviously a recurring motif. There is also a clear connection between the Akkadian/Amorite El (deriving from the very ancient God of the Adamites) and YHWH, which the bible preserves in the Ĕlōah/Elohim/YHWH identification.
 
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