Reconciled to God while enemies !

brightfame52

Well-known member
Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


All for whom Christ died, have been reconciled to God, by His death alone, not by their obedience, not by their faith, not by their repentance, but even while they were being enemies, unbelievers, children of wrath as others BY NATURE, now if this be the case, their being reconciled, they cannot be under condemnation and wrath as others Jn 3:18,36 even while being unbelievers !

You see, they cannot be both condemned and under wrath as enemies and reconciled to God as enemies at the same time !
Again you fail to differentiate between the act of reconciliation and the application of reconciliation

Anyone who has been reconciled can point back to the cross as the reason for their reconciliation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Again you fail to differentiate between the act of reconciliation and the application of reconciliation

Anyone who has been reconciled can point back to the cross as the reason for their reconciliation
The application has taken place since they were reconciled while being enemies.
 

civic

Well-known member
Again you fail to differentiate between the act of reconciliation and the application of reconciliation

Anyone who has been reconciled can point back to the cross as the reason for their reconciliation
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2644: καταλλάσσω

καταλλάσσω; 1 aorist participle καταλλαξας; 2 aorist passive κατηλλάγην; properly, to change, exchange, as coins for others of equal value; hence, to reconcile (those who are at variance): τινας, as τούς Θηβαιους καί τούς Πλαταιεας, Herodotus 6, 108; κατηλλαξαν σφεας οἱ Παριοι, 5, 29; Aristotle, oecon. 2, 15, 9 (p. 1348b, 9) κατήλλαξεν αὐτούς πρός ἀλλήλους; passive τίνι, to return into favor with, be reconciled to, one, Euripides, Iph. Aul. 1157; Plato, rep. 8, p. 566 e.; πρός ἀλλήλους, Thucydides 4, 59; but the passive is used also where only one ceases to be angry with another and receives him into favor; thus καταλλαγεις, received by Cyrus into favor, Xenophon, an. 1, 6, 1; καταλλάττεται πρός αὐτήν, regained her favor, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 2, 8; and, on the other hand, God is said καταλλαγῆναι τίνι, with whom he ceases to be offended, to whom he grants his favor anew, whose sins he pardons, 2 Macc. 1:5 2Macc. 7:33 2Macc. 8:29; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 7, 4 cf. 7, 8, 4 (so ἐπικαταλλάττεσθαι τίνι, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 48, 1 [ET]). In the N. T. God is said καταλλάσσειν ἑαυτῷ τινα, to receive one into his favor (A. V. reconcile one to himself), 2 Corinthians 5:18f (where in the added participles two arguments are adduced which prove that God has done this: first, that he does not impute to men their trespasses; second, that he has deposited the doctrine of reconciliation in the souls of the preachers of the gospel); καταλλαγῆναι τῷ Θεῷ, to be restored to the favor of God, to recover God's favor, Romans 5:10 (but see ἐχθρός, 2); καταλλάγητε τῷ Θεῷ, allow yourselves to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you, 2 Corinthians 5:20. of a woman: καταλλαγήτω τῷ ἀνδρί, let her return into harmony with (A. V. be reconciled to) her husband, 1 Corinthians 7:11. Cf. Fritzsche on Romans, vol. i., p. 276ff (who shows (in opposition to Tittmann, N. T. Synonyms, 1:102, et al.) that καταλλάσσω and διαλλάσσω are used promiscuously; the prepositions merely intensify (in slightly different modes) the meaning of the simple verb, and there is no evidence that one compound is stronger than the other; διαλλάσσω and its derivatives are more common in Attic, καταλλάσσω and its derivatives in later writers. Compare: ἀποκαταλλάσσω.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
reconcile.
From kata and allasso; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference -- reconcile.

see GREEK kata

see GREEK allasso
 

civic

Well-known member
Again you fail to differentiate between the act of reconciliation and the application of reconciliation

Anyone who has been reconciled can point back to the cross as the reason for their reconciliation
can you elaborate on the application side, thanks !
 

TomFL

Well-known member
can you elaborate on the application side, thanks !
Yes

Reconciliation is not accomplished until one believes

By definition reconciliation is

2 adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour. 2A in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

As Strongs notes

In the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.

That is why after stating

2 Corinthians 5:18–19 (KJV 1900)
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

and noting the objective fact of reconciliation accomplished at the cross

Application to the individual that is the restoration to favor transpires when one believes

which is why Paul could continue

2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV 1900)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2644: καταλλάσσω

καταλλάσσω; 1 aorist participle καταλλαξας; 2 aorist passive κατηλλάγην; properly, to change, exchange, as coins for others of equal value; hence, to reconcile (those who are at variance): τινας, as τούς Θηβαιους καί τούς Πλαταιεας, Herodotus 6, 108; κατηλλαξαν σφεας οἱ Παριοι, 5, 29; Aristotle, oecon. 2, 15, 9 (p. 1348b, 9) κατήλλαξεν αὐτούς πρός ἀλλήλους; passive τίνι, to return into favor with, be reconciled to, one, Euripides, Iph. Aul. 1157; Plato, rep. 8, p. 566 e.; πρός ἀλλήλους, Thucydides 4, 59; but the passive is used also where only one ceases to be angry with another and receives him into favor; thus καταλλαγεις, received by Cyrus into favor, Xenophon, an. 1, 6, 1; καταλλάττεται πρός αὐτήν, regained her favor, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 2, 8; and, on the other hand, God is said καταλλαγῆναι τίνι, with whom he ceases to be offended, to whom he grants his favor anew, whose sins he pardons, 2 Macc. 1:5 2Macc. 7:33 2Macc. 8:29; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 7, 4 cf. 7, 8, 4 (so ἐπικαταλλάττεσθαι τίνι, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 48, 1 [ET]). In the N. T. God is said καταλλάσσειν ἑαυτῷ τινα, to receive one into his favor (A. V. reconcile one to himself), 2 Corinthians 5:18f (where in the added participles two arguments are adduced which prove that God has done this: first, that he does not impute to men their trespasses; second, that he has deposited the doctrine of reconciliation in the souls of the preachers of the gospel); καταλλαγῆναι τῷ Θεῷ, to be restored to the favor of God, to recover God's favor, Romans 5:10 (but see ἐχθρός, 2); καταλλάγητε τῷ Θεῷ, allow yourselves to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you, 2 Corinthians 5:20. of a woman: καταλλαγήτω τῷ ἀνδρί, let her return into harmony with (A. V. be reconciled to) her husband, 1 Corinthians 7:11. Cf. Fritzsche on Romans, vol. i., p. 276ff (who shows (in opposition to Tittmann, N. T. Synonyms, 1:102, et al.) that καταλλάσσω and διαλλάσσω are used promiscuously; the prepositions merely intensify (in slightly different modes) the meaning of the simple verb, and there is no evidence that one compound is stronger than the other; διαλλάσσω and its derivatives are more common in Attic, καταλλάσσω and its derivatives in later writers. Compare: ἀποκαταλλάσσω.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
reconcile.
From kata and allasso; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference -- reconcile.

see GREEK kata

see GREEK allasso
Yes and ?
 

civic

Well-known member
Yes

Reconciliation is not accomplished until one believes

By definition reconciliation is

2 adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour. 2A in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

As Strongs notes

In the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ.

That is why after stating

2 Corinthians 5:18–19 (KJV 1900)
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

and noting the objective fact of reconciliation accomplished at the cross

Application to the individual that is the restoration to favor transpires when one believes

which is why Paul could continue

2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV 1900)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Yes and ?
But are not the Corinthians already believers ?

And Paul in 1 Cor 7 tells the wife to be reconciled to her husband- she is already his wife and has a relationship, marriage to him. Is not the same true here with believers being reconciled ?

If not why not ?

As we know 2 Cor 5:20 is the only usage of reconciled that can be in dispute all the other uses are crystal clear. Why should we make an exception here that doesn't fir into the concept or doctrine of reconciliation ?

And if you disagree would you at least consider this view is possible ?

I'm not asking you to change your mind or saying I'm right and you are wrong either as an FYI.

2 Corinthians 5
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The application has taken place since they were reconciled while being enemies.
Then why is God making an appeal through the apostles to be reconciled

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

and why does Paul state

Ephesians 2:11–13 (KJV 1900)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

and John

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
But are not the Corinthians already believers ?

And Paul in 1 Cor 7 tells the wife to be reconciled to her husband- she is already his wife and has a relationship, marriage to him. Is not the same true here with believers being reconciled ?

If not why not ?

Is the wife not separated from the husband ?

1 Cor. 7:11 —KJV
“But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.”

and the relationship broken and the parties separated ?

and the verse a recommendation for restoration


As we know 2 Cor 5:20 is the only usage of reconciled that can be in dispute all the other uses are crystal clear. Why should we make an exception here that doesn't fir into the concept or doctrine of reconciliation ?

And if you disagree would you at least consider this view is possible ?

I'm not asking you to change your mind or saying I'm right and you are wrong either as an FYI.

2 Corinthians 5
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

hope this helps !!!

In what sense could you see believers separated from God and apart from his favor

Rom. 8:35–39 —KJV
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I believe Paul is speaking generally of men

2 Cor. 5:11 —KJV
“Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”And the gospel call an appeal to reconciliation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Then why is God making an appeal through the apostles to be reconciled

2 Cor. 5:20 —ESV
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

and why does Paul state

Ephesians 2:11–13 (KJV 1900)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

and John

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
I'm going to discuss that point, however the application has taken place while being enemies. They were reconciled then. That is application.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Lets discuss the OP points
That is what we have been doing

How can one who is under wrath be reconciled

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
That is what we have been doing

How can one who is under wrath be reconciled

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Do you understand that one cannot be objectively reconciled to God by Christs death while being an enemy and unbeliever and then at the same time be under Gods condemnation and wrath like these unbelievers ? Jn 3 18,36 its a contradiction. That contradiction is solved when you realize the unbelievers in Jn 3 18,36 are unbelievers Christ didn't die for, hence they are not objectively reconciled to God by His Death.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Do you understand that one cannot be objectively reconciled to God by Christs death while being an enemy and unbeliever and then at the same time be under Gods condemnation and wrath like these unbelievers ? Jn 3 18,36 its a contradiction. That contradiction is solved when you realize the unbelievers in Jn 3 18,36 are unbelievers Christ didn't die for, hence they are not objectively reconciled to God by His Death.
That was my argument

Hello

and your claim is an addition to scripture

and based upon your assumption of a limited atonement

thus question begging
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
One of the reasons why everyone Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death only, even while they are enemies or unbelievers , is because there is no sins against God's Law imputed to them, Christ's death has paid in full for them, and God has nothing against them, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers.

So its impossible for unbelievers whom Christ died for, to at anytime be considered one of the unbelievers pointed out here Jn 3:18 or Jn 3:36 !

Those are only unbelievers Christ did not died for and did not reconciled to God by His Death !2
 

TomFL

Well-known member
One of the reasons why everyone Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death only, even while they are enemies or unbelievers , is because there is no sins against God's Law imputed to them, Christ's death has paid in full for them, and God has nothing against them, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers.

So its impossible for unbelievers whom Christ died for, to at anytime be considered one of the unbelievers pointed out here Jn 3:18 or Jn 3:36 !

Those are only unbelievers Christ did not died for and did not reconciled to God by His Death !2
Which is supported nowhere in the bible

Eph. 2:11–12 —KJV
Ҧ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Which is supported nowhere in the bible

Eph. 2:11–12 —KJV
Ҧ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:”
Sure it is. I just witness it to you from the scriptures. You don't believe.
 
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