Reducing God to the truth and reality.

Nouveau

Well-known member
You'd have to know how and why the truth and reality is known to you in order to be honest, and you don't, so you are incapable of being honest.

God is known to exist in and by the same way and place everything else is known to exist; in and with a believing mind.
SORRY ONLY BELIEVERS ALLOWED.

God is known to exist in and with His own believing mind. And because the truth and reality can only be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be exist in God's believing mind. He doesn't need your unbelieving mind in order to be known to exist. But He and we both need our believing minds in order to know His truth and reality exists and can only occur in and with a believing mind.

Strawman. Minds don't have to exist inside one another in order to share the same truth and reality. Rather all minds have to do is share the same truth and reality is to share the same beliefs. And then they get to know and experience the same truth and reality. You don't seem to know nor understand how and why minds, belief, the truth and reality work together to form consciousness.
What part of "Yes or No" are you having trouble understanding, Tercon?

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]
2. Does God exist outside of your mind? [Yes or No]
3. Is your mind contained within God's mind? [Yes or No]
 

Tercon

Well-known member
What part of "Yes or No" are you having trouble understanding, Tercon?

What part of "necessary" don't you understand silly? When it says that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you, then that means that your opinion as to belief's sufficiency is irrelevant, because it still must occur before the truth is known to you. You don't seem to understand that is the way it works.

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]
God is known to exist in and by the same way and place everything else is known to exist; in and with a believing mind.
SORRY ONLY BELIEVERS ALLOWED.
2. Does God exist outside of your mind? [Yes or No]
God is known to exist in and with His own believing mind. And because the truth and reality can only be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be exist in God's believing mind. He doesn't need your unbelieving mind in order to be known to exist. But He and we both need our believing minds in order to know His truth and reality exists and can only occur in and with a believing mind.3. Is your mind contained within God's mind? [Yes or No]

3. Is your mind contained within God's mind? [Yes or No]

Strawman. Minds don't have to exist inside one another in order to share the same truth and reality. Rather all minds have to do to share the same truth and reality is to share the same beliefs. And then they get to know and experience the same truth and reality other minds do. You don't seem to know nor understand how and why minds, belief, the truth and reality work together to form consciousness.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
What part of "necessary" don't you understand silly? When it says that belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to everyone including you, then that means that your opinion as to belief's sufficiency is irrelevant, because it still must occur before the truth is known to you. You don't seem to understand that is the way it works.

God is known to exist in and by the same way and place everything else is known to exist; in and with a believing mind.
SORRY ONLY BELIEVERS ALLOWED.

God is known to exist in and with His own believing mind. And because the truth and reality can only be known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must be exist in God's believing mind. He doesn't need your unbelieving mind in order to be known to exist. But He and we both need our believing minds in order to know His truth and reality exists and can only occur in and with a believing mind.3. Is your mind contained within God's mind? [Yes or No]

Strawman. Minds don't have to exist inside one another in order to share the same truth and reality. Rather all minds have to do to share the same truth and reality is to share the same beliefs. And then they get to know and experience the same truth and reality other minds do. You don't seem to know nor understand how and why minds, belief, the truth and reality work together to form consciousness.
Still waiting for you to stop evading and come up with the courage to actually answer me.

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]
2. Does God exist outside of your mind? [Yes or No]
3. Is your mind contained within God's mind? [Yes or No]
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Still waiting for you to stop evading and come up with the courage to actually answer me.

Still waiting for you to admit that

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]

What do you know of that isn't known to exist or occur in and with your mind silly?

2. Does God exist outside of your mind? [Yes or No]

God experiences His own existence in and with His own mind, the same way and place I know myself to exist. I just get to know, experience and partake of God's truth and reality when I share His belief that originated in and with Him. That's how and why different minds get to to know, experience and partake in the same truth and reality. We just share the same belief.
You don't say or deal with anything about what I am saying because you can't refute what I have said to begin with.

3. Is your mind contained within God's mind? [Yes or No]

Strawman and no. That's not the way believing minds share in the same truth and reality.

You are trying to confuse yourself so you won't and can't deal with what you are being exposed to here.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Still waiting for you to admit that

What do you know of that isn't known to exist or occur in and with your mind silly?

God experiences His own existence in and with His own mind, the same way and place I know myself to exist. I just get to know, experience and partake of God's truth and reality when I share His belief that originated in and with Him. That's how and why different minds get to to know, experience and partake in the same truth and reality. We just share the same belief.
You don't say or deal with anything about what I am saying because you can't refute what I have said to begin with.

Strawman and no. That's not the way believing minds share in the same truth and reality.

You are trying to confuse yourself so you won't and can't deal with what you are being exposed to here.
Well, that's 1 out of 3, so better than nothing. However, it's also enough for you to have contradicted yourself.

Here are the two questions you are still evading:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]
2. Does God exist outside of your mind? [Yes or No]

Here are the 3 questions you've answered by contradicting yourself:

Is reality contained within God's mind? Tercon: "Yes"
Is your mind contained within reality? Tercon: "Yes"
Is your mind contained within God's mind? Tercon: "no"

You cannot be contained within something that is itself contained within God's mind, without yourself being contained within God's mind. You can confirm this with a simple Venn diagram showing containment. Draw a circle representing God's mind. Now draw a circle representing reality. This second circle will have to be inside the first circle to show that reality is contained within God's mind. Now draw an X to show where your mind is located. You have to draw it inside both circles for your second claim to be true (putting your mind within reality), yet you have to draw it outside both circles for your last claim to be true (putting your mind outside of God's mind). This is obviously not possible.

If you disagree, then please draw and post your own Venn diagram showing how you would resolve this, making all three of your above answers true without contradiction.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Well, that's 1 out of 3, so better than nothing. However, it's also enough for you to have contradicted yourself.

Here are the two questions you are still evading:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]

You are projecting your unbelief, as you don't know God exists because you disbelieve He exists. And in your unbelief there is no truth or reality knowable to you.

God is known to exist by believers via His Spirit of truth. If God is reality, then believers exist in and because of His believing mind. And the only way and place that anything that exists can be known to exist is in and with a believing mind.

Name one way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist or occur silly?

2. Does God exist outside of your mind? [Yes or No]

Yes. His truth and reality exists in and with every believing mind. So, He doesn't just exist in my believing mind silly.

Here are the 3 questions you've answered by contradicting yourself:

Is reality contained within God's mind? Tercon: "Yes"

Actually everything that exists and occurs in reality is the result of God's believing mind.

If the truth, logic, morality, consciousness, existence and reality itself absolutely exist and the only way and place that these things can absolutely be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then these absolutely existing things exist in and because of God's believing mind.

Is your mind contained within reality? Tercon: "Yes"
Is your mind contained within God's mind? Tercon: "no"

Actually the truth and reality are contained inside and outside of my believing mind. But the only way and place the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with someone's believing mind, because outside of a believing mind the truth and reality are unknowable.

You cannot be contained within something that is itself contained within God's mind, without yourself being contained within God's mind.

You are conflating a believing mind and brain, as the contents of someone's mind is their beliefs. And the contents of someone else's mind can be known in and to any other believing mind. So, in reality believing minds can be known in and by other believing minds and our knowledge of other believing minds are only limited to and by unbelief.

You can confirm this with a simple Venn diagram showing containment. Draw a circle representing God's mind. Now draw a circle representing reality. This second circle will have to be inside the first circle to show that reality is contained within God's mind. Now draw an X to show where your mind is located. You have to draw it inside both circles for your second claim to be true (putting your mind within reality), yet you have to draw it outside both circles for your last claim to be true (putting your mind outside of God's mind). This is obviously not possible.

Strawman. If God's mind is reality, because the only way and place reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind. And if consciousness like reality is only knowable and experienceable in and with a believing mind, then reality must be the result of someone's consciousness. And if the truth and reality is the result of God's believing mind aka His consciousness, then God's mind or consciousness is reality. Or reality = God's believing mind aka His consciousness.

If you disagree, then please draw and post your own Venn diagram showing how you would resolve this, making all three of your above answers true without contradiction.

You obviously don't know how belief and minds work in order to share the same truth and reality.
Firstly, you are objectifying a mind and belief or IOW reification. Concepts like belief, truth, consciousness, existence and minds work and are experienced differently than physical objects.
If belief is only known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind and belief is the content of believing minds, then believing minds and their content is transferable and knowable to other believing minds when those believing minds believe the same things; IOW have the same beliefs. Minds DO NOT have to exist or occur inside of one another physically for believing minds to know and experience the SAME truth and reality, rather all they have to do is share the same beliefs. It's called a relationship. Understand?

Now, when it comes to God and having a relationship with Him, all we have to do is share His beliefs and His Spirit of truth and reality is known to the believer, then His Spirit influences the believer.

venn_Reality.png
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
You are projecting your unbelief, as you don't know God exists because you disbelieve He exists. And in your unbelief there is no truth or reality knowable to you.

God is known to exist by believers via His Spirit of truth. If God is reality, then believers exist in and because of His believing mind. And the only way and place that anything that exists can be known to exist is in and with a believing mind.

Name one way or place outside of a believing mind that the truth and reality can be known to exist or occur silly?
None of this answers what you were replying to. Can you please answer this:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]

Yes. His truth and reality exists in and with every believing mind. So, He doesn't just exist in my believing mind silly.
Are minds the only places that God exists? And do you mean that God himself literally exists in all believers minds, or just that ideas of him exist there? If the first option, then are you saying that God exists in parts (with a part of God existing in each believers mind)?

Actually the truth and reality are contained inside and outside of my believing mind.
I think you need to work on your understanding of what the word "contained" means. Nothing can be contained in X if it also exists outside of X.

You are conflating a believing mind and brain, as the contents of someone's mind is their beliefs. And the contents of someone else's mind can be known in and to any other believing mind. So, in reality believing minds can be known in and by other believing minds and our knowledge of other believing minds are only limited to and by unbelief.
I think you're confusing knowledge and existence again. You're talking about knowledge of a thing or person being shared by different minds. I was pointing out that a thing itself cannot be contained within something that is itself contained within God's mind, without that first thing thereby also being contained within God's mind. I'm talking about the things themselves, not merely ideas or knowledge of them (which obviously can be shared).

Strawman. If God's mind is reality, because the only way and place reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind. And if consciousness like reality is only knowable and experienceable in and with a believing mind, then reality must be the result of someone's consciousness. And if the truth and reality is the result of God's believing mind aka His consciousness, then God's mind or consciousness is reality. Or reality = God's believing mind aka His consciousness.
You have a habit of responding to things you don't understand by labeling them as strawmen and then ignoring them completely to start ranting about something unrelated. A better strategy would be to ask for clarification so that you can come to understand what is being said to you. What I was explaining to you was the transitivity of containment (i.e. if A is contained in B, and B is contained in C, then A must also be contained in C).

You obviously don't know how belief and minds work in order to share the same truth and reality.
Firstly, you are objectifying a mind and belief or IOW reification. Concepts like belief, truth, consciousness, existence and minds work and are experienced differently than physical objects.
If belief is only known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind and belief is the content of believing minds, then believing minds and their content is transferable and knowable to other believing minds when those believing minds believe the same things; IOW have the same beliefs. Minds DO NOT have to exist or occur inside of one another physically for believing minds to know and experience the SAME truth and reality, rather all they have to do is share the same beliefs. It's called a relationship. Understand?

Now, when it comes to God and having a relationship with Him, all we have to do is share His beliefs and His Spirit of truth and reality is known to the believer, then His Spirit influences the believer.

View attachment 1409
Your diagram shows you as a believer contained within God's mind. Yet when I asked if your mind is contained within God's mind, you said "no". Are you changing that answer?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Your diagram shows you as a believer contained within God's mind. Yet when I asked if your mind is contained within God's mind, you said "no". Are you changing that answer?
Deal with this first before we go any further and stop evading what is being said to you.

Firstly, you are objectifying a mind and belief or IOW reification. Concepts like belief, truth, consciousness, existence and minds work and are experienced differently than physical objects.
If belief is only known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind and belief is the content of believing minds, then believing minds and their content is transferable and knowable to other believing minds when those believing minds believe the same things; IOW have the same beliefs. Minds DO NOT have to exist or occur inside of one another physically for believing minds to know and experience the SAME truth and reality, rather all they have to do is share the same beliefs. It's called a relationship. Understand?

Now, when it comes to God and having a relationship with Him, all we have to do is share His beliefs and His Spirit of truth and reality is known to the believer, then His Spirit influences the believer.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You have a habit of responding to things you don't understand by labeling them as strawmen and then ignoring them completely to start ranting about something unrelated. A better strategy would be to ask for clarification so that you can come to understand what is being said to you. What I was explaining to you was the transitivity of containment (i.e. if A is contained in B, and B is contained in C, then A must also be contained in C).

It is a strawman because it doesn't represent what I believe.

This is what I believe, now deal with this and then we can move on:

If God's mind is reality, because the only way and place reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind. And if consciousness like reality is only knowable and experienceable in and with a believing mind, then reality must be the result of someone's consciousness. And if the truth and reality is the result of God's believing mind aka His consciousness, then God's mind or consciousness is reality. Or reality = God's believing mind aka His consciousness.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Deal with this first before we go any further and stop evading what is being said to you.

Firstly, you are objectifying a mind and belief or IOW reification. Concepts like belief, truth, consciousness, existence and minds work and are experienced differently than physical objects.
If belief is only known to exist and occur in and with a believing mind and belief is the content of believing minds, then believing minds and their content is transferable and knowable to other believing minds when those believing minds believe the same things; IOW have the same beliefs. Minds DO NOT have to exist or occur inside of one another physically for believing minds to know and experience the SAME truth and reality, rather all they have to do is share the same beliefs. It's called a relationship. Understand?

Now, when it comes to God and having a relationship with Him, all we have to do is share His beliefs and His Spirit of truth and reality is known to the believer, then His Spirit influences the believer.
I'm going to need you to answer my questions before I allow you to ignore them and change the subject. I asked you if your mind is contained within God's mind, and you said "no". But now you've drawn a diagram locating yourself within God's mind. So which of those is wrong?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
None of this answers what you were replying to. Can you please answer this:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]

I explained how minds work in sharing their content with one another and you didn't refute what I said about how minds share their content. So why do you continue to pretend that believing minds work like physical objects silly?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I'm going to need you to answer my questions before I allow you to ignore them and change the subject. I asked you if your mind is contained within God's mind, and you said "no". But now you've drawn a diagram locating yourself within God's mind. So which of those is wrong?
I did. I showed you how believing minds work and you ignored it bluff.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I think you need to work on your understanding of what the word "contained" means.

I think you need to work on your unbelief, because your understanding of how belief and believing minds work is delusional to say the least.

Nothing can be contained in X if it also exists outside of X.

If X is how and where everything is known to exist and occur like a believing mind, then nothing can be known to exist or occur outside or without a believing mind and X silly.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I think you're confusing knowledge and existence again. You're talking about knowledge of a thing or person being shared by different minds. I was pointing out that a thing itself cannot be contained within something that is itself contained within God's mind, without that first thing thereby also being contained within God's mind. I'm talking about the things themselves, not merely ideas or knowledge of them (which obviously can be shared).

Strawman. Not at all. But if the only way and place that knowledge and existence can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then both knowledge and existence require and entail a believing mind in order to exist and occur. QED
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
It is a strawman because it doesn't represent what I believe.
Correcting you is not strawmanning. If you say 2+2 equals 5, and I say that no, it equals 4, I have not engaged in strawmanning. To strawman is to attribute to you a position you don't hold, and I did not do that.

This is what I believe, now deal with this and then we can move on:

If God's mind is reality, because the only way and place reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind. And if consciousness like reality is only knowable and experienceable in and with a believing mind, then reality must be the result of someone's consciousness. And if the truth and reality is the result of God's believing mind aka His consciousness, then God's mind or consciousness is reality. Or reality = God's believing mind aka His consciousness.
I'm dealing with that by collecting your answers to some simple questions. But I don't have all your answers yet. Here's what we have so far:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No?]
2. Does God exist outside of your mind? Tercon: "Yes"
3. Is reality contained within God's mind? Tercon: "Yes"
4. Is your mind contained within reality? Tercon: "Yes"
5. Is your mind contained within God's mind? Tercon: "No"... But also Tercon (in his diagram): Yes

So I'm still waiting on an answer to (1) and clarification on (5).

Note also that 2-4 collectively entail that your own mind exists outside of your mind, so feel free to change those answers too if you like.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I explained how minds work in sharing their content with one another and you didn't refute what I said about how minds share their content. So why do you continue to pretend that believing minds work like physical objects silly?
Just answer the question please:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I did. I showed you how believing minds work and you ignored it bluff.
Please clarify. Were you wrong when you said your mind is not contained within God's mind? Or was your diagram wrong when you drew your own mind contained within God's mind?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I think you need to work on your unbelief, because your understanding of how belief and believing minds work is delusional to say the least.

If X is how and where everything is known to exist and occur like a believing mind, then nothing can be known to exist or occur outside or without a believing mind and X silly.
If you are going to use the word "contained" then you really need to learn what it means.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman. Not at all. But if the only way and place that knowledge and existence can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, then both knowledge and existence require and entail a believing mind in order to exist and occur. QED
You're doing it again - responding to something you don't understand by crying "strawman" and then launching into your own word salad instead of addressing what you were responding to. This is not a good habit. Please ask for clarification if you don't understand something.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Correcting you is not strawmanning. If you say 2+2 equals 5, and I say that no, it equals 4, I have not engaged in strawmanning. To strawman is to attribute to you a position you don't hold, and I did not do that.

Strawman and projection. I didn't argue "2+2 equals 5" silly. And suggesting I did is a strawman. And you are doing just that right here by attributing such positions as "2+2=5" to me. You're strawmanning.

Notice Reader that he never deals with what is said to him, but relies on strawmen he makes up instead. Why? Because what is being said to him is true and to dispute it he'd make himself look completely irrational.

I'm dealing with that by collecting your answers to some simple questions. But I don't have all your answers yet. Here's what we have so far:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No?]

All truth and reality are ONLY known to exist and occur with and inside a believing mind.

2. Does God exist outside of your mind? Tercon: "Yes"

ALL truth and reality is ONLY known to exist and occur in and with believing minds.

3. Is reality contained within God's mind? Tercon: "Yes"

If the only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, and outside or without a believing mind the truth and reality is unknowable and doesn't have a means to occur, then the truth and reality must exist in and with God's believing mind.

4. Is your mind contained within reality? Tercon: "Yes"

If the ONLY thing capable of making the truth and reality known to exist and occur is a believing mind, then the ONLY way to know the truth and reality is to have a belief in reality. God's mind = reality.


5. Is your mind contained within God's mind? Tercon: "No"... But also Tercon (in his diagram): Yes

Strawman. I share God's beliefs.

The contents of minds are beliefs.
So, if different people can know one another's mind by just sharing the same beliefs, then minds can share the same content and experience the same thing by sharing the same beliefs..

So I'm still waiting on an answer to (1) and clarification on (5).

Note also that 2-4 collectively entail that your own mind exists outside of your mind, so feel free to change those answers too if you like.

Strawman and projection. No, "your own mind" just doesn't know how the truth and reality works.

Just answer the question please:

1. Does God exist inside of your mind? [Yes or No]

God's truth and reality exists and occurs in any believing mind.

Please clarify. Were you wrong when you said your mind is not contained within God's mind? Or was your diagram wrong when you drew your own mind contained within God's mind?

Reification of beliefs and minds. Beliefs and minds aren't physical objects, they are mental acts and concepts that are known and experienced differently than physical objects.

If you are going to use the word "contained" then you really need to learn what it means.

You really have to stop objectifying everything or you will never know how and why the truth, reality and minds work properly.

You're doing it again - responding to something you don't understand by crying "strawman" and then launching into your own word salad instead of addressing what you were responding to. This is not a good habit. Please ask for clarification if you don't understand something.

Strawman and projection. No actually you're just talking about something (QM) that you don't know how to interpret, because your unbelief and materialism won't allow you to interpret it correctly.
 
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