Reformed Preterism Is Dead

first thanks for reply, second, I'm, not a preterist. third do you believe the Lord Jesus? let's see.
Luke 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
is not God a Spirit? see Jomn 4:24a

Now, are you going to believe Moses or God?

:ninja:
BOTH ! As the all-powerful Spirit, GOD CAN DO ANYTHING.. If He chooses to look like a man, He CAN. If He chooses to be invisible, He CAN. If He chooses to be a land octopus, He CAN.

No one can name anything He cannot do ! We can name many things He WILL NOT do, such as lie, but there's nothing He CANNOT do !
 
Moses plainly wrote in various places that God has hands, a back, and a face. I believe him over any of mens' ignorant guesswork. And you're not doing squat to defend the preterist myth.
You were speaking to another but I agree God does have those things. I think some struggle with it for they read God is a Spirit so therefore he's not physical but they don't get that even angels are spirits and have a spiritual form body. Another thing they wonder how can God be everywhere then if he has a form...that would suggest places where he isn't. We have things even in the universe we know that could help us understand. A star or our Sun has a form it's 93 million miles away and yet we say we're going out into the Sun. The Sun has a form and yet it's here as well by its all encompassing radiation. It could be said in a real way of saying it you are going out into the Sun. I suppose some struggling with the idea that God has a form which Jesus actually even said he did, Jn 5:37 keep thinking it'd make him have limitations. No reason to think that.
 
You were speaking to another but I agree God does have those things. I think some struggle with it for they read God is a Spirit so therefore he's not physical but they don't get that even angels are spirits and have a spiritual form body. Another thing they wonder how can God be everywhere then if he has a form...that would suggest places where he isn't. We have things even in the universe we know that could help us understand. A star or our Sun has a form it's 93 million miles away and yet we say we're going out into the Sun. The Sun has a form and yet it's here as well by its all encompassing radiation. It could be said in a real way of saying it you are going out into the Sun. I suppose some struggling with the idea that God has a form which Jesus actually even said he did, Jn 5:37 keep thinking it'd make him have limitations. No reason to think that.
As I reminded 101G, God can do ANYTHING. He can take any form He chooses to take. He can be everywhere, and in only one place at the same time. We simply cannot understand His full nature and power.
 
first thanks for reply, second, I'm, not a preterist. third do you believe the Lord Jesus? let's see.
Luke 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
is not God a Spirit? see Jomn 4:24a

Now, are you going to believe Moses or God?

:ninja:
But are not angels spirits too? I'd say when Jesus said a spirit has not flesh and bones it's talking about a body of the terrestrial. It doesn't mean spirits don't have forms that you could see if God gave you for a moment the discerning of spirits, or seeing into the spirit realm. The story of Elisha and his servant even reveal this,

"Therefore he sent horses and chariots and a great army there, and they came by night and surrounded the city. 15And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha." 2 Kings 6: 14

These weren't physical beings but spiritual but they still had forms in the spiritual realm. Why should we not likewise believe God has a form?
 
that's contradictory ..... unless Moses was using an anthropomorphism to describe God. and please note: God is a God of Order.

:ninja:
Nupe! Moe wrote matter-of-factly. And the hand of God is often mentioned in Scripture.
 
Reformed beliefs that much of Old Testament Prophecy concerning Israel has been fulfilled and that the Church is now the Israel of God has been exposed as heresy and false teaching by James' quote of Amos 9, therefore, 'Preterism' should be considered dead!


Amos and James in Acts 15 prove the 'Day of the Lord' is synonymous with the 'Return of Jesus' (Second Coming)

Amos 9:11
11 "In that day (Day of the Lord) I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;


Acts 15:13-16
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24)
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things, (Times of the Gentiles), I will return (Day of the Lord), AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,


James' quote of Amos establishes a firm foundation for interpretation

When Jesus returns, He will then restore the Davidic Kingdom to Israel in the Millennium

You botched this.
 
Reformed beliefs that much of Old Testament Prophecy concerning Israel has been fulfilled and that the Church is now the Israel of God has been exposed as heresy and false teaching by James' quote of Amos 9, therefore, 'Preterism' should be considered dead!


Amos and James in Acts 15 prove the 'Day of the Lord' is synonymous with the 'Return of Jesus' (Second Coming)

Amos 9:11
11 "In that day (Day of the Lord) I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;


Acts 15:13-16
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24)
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things, (Times of the Gentiles), I will return (Day of the Lord), AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,


James' quote of Amos establishes a firm foundation for interpretation

When Jesus returns, He will then restore the Davidic Kingdom to Israel in the Millennium


These Biblical Scriptures have establish solid Biblical Theology concerning Israel's restoration that contradicts and destroys the interpretation that Old Testament Prophecies have all been fulfilled and that the Church is now, Israel!


  • Amos 9:11-15 The LORD will restore Israel to its former glory, and they will never be uprooted again
  • Micah 4:1-5 The LORD’s future reign on earth in Jerusalem
  • Micah 4:6-13 The LORD will gather Israel and restore the kingdom
  • Zechariah 2:1-13 The LORD is going to going to call the exiles home to live with him in Israel
  • Zechariah 6:9-15 The LORD will rule as king and priest in the rebuilt temple
  • Zechariah 8:1-23 The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will return to Mount Zion and live in Jerusalem to bless the remnant of Israel
  • Zechariah 9:9-17 The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will destroy all the weapons used in battle and bring peace to the nations
  • Zechariah 10:1-12 The LORD will restore his people
  • Zechariah 12:1-14 The LORD will defend his people and give victory to Jerusalem
  • Zechariah 14:1-21 The LORD will rule the whole earth from Jerusalem


RCM
This is happening now from the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem
 
Reformed beliefs that much of Old Testament Prophecy concerning Israel has been fulfilled and that the Church is now the Israel of God has been exposed as heresy and false teaching by James' quote of Amos 9, therefore, 'Preterism' should be considered dead!


Amos and James in Acts 15 prove the 'Day of the Lord' is synonymous with the 'Return of Jesus' (Second Coming)

Amos 9:11
11 "In that day (Day of the Lord) I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;


Acts 15:13-16
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24)
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things, (Times of the Gentiles), I will return (Day of the Lord), AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,


RCM
You said,

"Amos 9:11
11 "In that day (Day of the Lord) I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;"

I also agree that the Day of the Lord is synonymous with Christ's second coming.

But I do have one question... To me, the Day of the Lord is one of judgement, not one of rebuilding. So, my question is where does it say "day of the Lord" in Amos 9:11? I know YOU say it is, but I would need Scripture. To me, this speaks of the Gospel age which is then followed by the second coming in judgement.

(2Th 1:8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(2Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

BTW, if one believes the inspirational testimony of Paul the Apostle, HE SAYS the Great Commission has already been fulfilled:

PROPHECY/COMMAND
FULFILLMENT
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. (Matthew 24:14 NASB)But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Romans 10:18 NASB)
World is the Greek - oikoumene
World is the Greek - oikoumene
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16:15 NASB)which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; (Colossians 1:6 NASB)
World is the Greek - kosmos
World is the Greek - kosmos
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16:15 NASB)
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (Colossians 1:23 NASB)
Creation is the Greek - ktsis
Creation is the Greek - ktsis
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19 NASB)but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; (Romans 16:26 NASB)
Nations is the Greek - ethnos
Nations is the Greek - ethnos
but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." (Acts 1:8 NASB)But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Romans 10:18 NASB)
Earth is the Greek - ge
Earth is the Greek - ge
 
Reformed beliefs that much of Old Testament Prophecy concerning Israel has been fulfilled and that the Church is now the Israel of God has been exposed as heresy and false teaching by James' quote of Amos 9, therefore, 'Preterism' should be considered dead!


Amos and James in Acts 15 prove the 'Day of the Lord' is synonymous with the 'Return of Jesus' (Second Coming)

Amos 9:11
11 "In that day (Day of the Lord) I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;


Acts 15:13-16
13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.
14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. (Times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24)
15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'AFTER these things, (Times of the Gentiles), I will return (Day of the Lord), AND I WILL REBUILD the TABERNACLE of DAVID which has fallen, AND I WILL REBUILD its ruins, AND I WILL RESTORE it,


James' quote of Amos establishes a firm foundation for interpretation



RCM

You must stop listening to uninspired commentaries. Study Scripture instead...

Amos 9:8 – Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.​

This is reiterated again in verse nine:

Amos 9:9 – For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.​

It is in this day the tabernacle of David will be raised up once again:

Amos 9:11-12 – In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Charles Ryrie, in his study Bible on page 1274, believes these verses refer to Israel’s future millennial kingdom. However, the New Testament clearly designates the time of fulfillment of Amos 9:11-12 in Acts 15:15-17 with the original prophecy (verses 16-17) as quoted from the Septuagint (the Old Testament in Greek). Listen to what James had to say:

Acts 15:15-17 – And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


The main thrust of verse 15 must be understood as it was said, with nothing interjected into the text. Just moments before the text in question, Peter stood up and declared in verse 7, “that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Immediately after Peter had spoken, Paul and Barnabas (verse 12) give testimony “declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.” After these three gentlemen finished testifying of their evangelistic experiences, James, in verse 14, accurately summarizes Peter’s thoughts, and then said “To THIS agree the words of the prophets.” The “this” is the previous testimony of the grafting in of the Gentiles into the church as stated by Peter, Paul, and Barnabas. To say otherwise is exactly what dispensational theology does. I quote Charles Ryrie from page 1567 of his 1978 study Bible regarding the Acts 15 passage:


“The quotation is from the Septuagint (Greek) version of Amos 9:11-12. James specifies that the prophecy of Amos will be fulfilled “after this,” i.e., after the present worldwide witness. Then, after the return of Christ, the tabernacle of David (in the millennial kingdom) will be established, and Jew and Gentile will know the Lord. James assured the council that God’s program for Israel had not been abandoned by the coming of Gentiles into the church.” [Underlined and bolded portions are my emphasis]​

The only thing that can be agreed upon is the fact that it was quoted from the Septuagint! What Ryrie and many others fail to see is the “after this” refers back to Amos’ original Old Testament prophecy and has nothing to do with the actual events from the book of Acts that transpired in the meeting room that day. The “after this,” which is rendered as “in that day” in Amos 9:11 points to the three previous verses (Amos 9:8-10) in which the sinful kingdom will be destroyed, in which the house of Israel will be sifted as corn in a sieve, and “the sinners of my people shall die by the sword.” But at this same time, the remnant by faith (which is always the case) shall be delivered as described by those not utterly destroyed from the house of Jacob and by those who represent the least grain not falling upon the earth. This matches perfectly with the time the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed according to Matthew chapters 23 and 24.

Did you happen to notice Ryrie’s interjection or insertion of “after the present worldwide witness?” Where is that mentioned in the context? Amos’ Septuagint version clearly states that the Gentiles would also seek the Lord – and that is exactly what had happened when James referred to the testimonies of Peter, Paul, and Barnabas! Mr. Ryrie replaces the Gentile inclusion into the church with a worldwide witness because he must support his future millennial kingdom theory. Who should you believe: James, Peter, Paul, and Barnabas (three inspired apostles and a Jewish Levite believer, or Charles Ryrie (with his Th.D. and Ph.D.)?

Another casual eisegetical insertion of Ryrie’s was his parenthetical “in the millennial kingdom.” His comment comes as a surprise because it is also not mentioned in either of the Old Testament or New Testament contexts! Once again, dispensational theology has been fooled by the prophetic metaphorical prose of the prophets. Does Mr. Ryrie actually believe “the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt” (Amos 9:13) in his alleged millennial kingdom? It is simply figurative language describing the blessings of the Gospel age and is almost identical to what Joel said:

Joel 3:18 – And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
 
You must stop listening to uninspired commentaries. Study Scripture instead...

Amos 9:8 – Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.​

This is reiterated again in verse nine:

Amos 9:9 – For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.​

It is in this day the tabernacle of David will be raised up once again:

Amos 9:11-12 – In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Charles Ryrie, in his study Bible on page 1274, believes these verses refer to Israel’s future millennial kingdom. However, the New Testament clearly designates the time of fulfillment of Amos 9:11-12 in Acts 15:15-17 with the original prophecy (verses 16-17) as quoted from the Septuagint (the Old Testament in Greek). Listen to what James had to say:

Acts 15:15-17 – And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


The main thrust of verse 15 must be understood as it was said, with nothing interjected into the text. Just moments before the text in question, Peter stood up and declared in verse 7, “that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Immediately after Peter had spoken, Paul and Barnabas (verse 12) give testimony “declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.” After these three gentlemen finished testifying of their evangelistic experiences, James, in verse 14, accurately summarizes Peter’s thoughts, and then said “To THIS agree the words of the prophets.” The “this” is the previous testimony of the grafting in of the Gentiles into the church as stated by Peter, Paul, and Barnabas. To say otherwise is exactly what dispensational theology does. I quote Charles Ryrie from page 1567 of his 1978 study Bible regarding the Acts 15 passage:


“The quotation is from the Septuagint (Greek) version of Amos 9:11-12. James specifies that the prophecy of Amos will be fulfilled “after this,” i.e., after the present worldwide witness. Then, after the return of Christ, the tabernacle of David (in the millennial kingdom) will be established, and Jew and Gentile will know the Lord. James assured the council that God’s program for Israel had not been abandoned by the coming of Gentiles into the church.” [Underlined and bolded portions are my emphasis]​

The only thing that can be agreed upon is the fact that it was quoted from the Septuagint! What Ryrie and many others fail to see is the “after this” refers back to Amos’ original Old Testament prophecy and has nothing to do with the actual events from the book of Acts that transpired in the meeting room that day. The “after this,” which is rendered as “in that day” in Amos 9:11 points to the three previous verses (Amos 9:8-10) in which the sinful kingdom will be destroyed, in which the house of Israel will be sifted as corn in a sieve, and “the sinners of my people shall die by the sword.” But at this same time, the remnant by faith (which is always the case) shall be delivered as described by those not utterly destroyed from the house of Jacob and by those who represent the least grain not falling upon the earth. This matches perfectly with the time the temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed according to Matthew chapters 23 and 24.

Did you happen to notice Ryrie’s interjection or insertion of “after the present worldwide witness?” Where is that mentioned in the context? Amos’ Septuagint version clearly states that the Gentiles would also seek the Lord – and that is exactly what had happened when James referred to the testimonies of Peter, Paul, and Barnabas! Mr. Ryrie replaces the Gentile inclusion into the church with a worldwide witness because he must support his future millennial kingdom theory. Who should you believe: James, Peter, Paul, and Barnabas (three inspired apostles and a Jewish Levite believer, or Charles Ryrie (with his Th.D. and Ph.D.)?

Another casual eisegetical insertion of Ryrie’s was his parenthetical “in the millennial kingdom.” His comment comes as a surprise because it is also not mentioned in either of the Old Testament or New Testament contexts! Once again, dispensational theology has been fooled by the prophetic metaphorical prose of the prophets. Does Mr. Ryrie actually believe “the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt” (Amos 9:13) in his alleged millennial kingdom? It is simply figurative language describing the blessings of the Gospel age and is almost identical to what Joel said:

Joel 3:18 – And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

The Preterist ability to interpret the Biblical Scriptures is pathetic


You can play all the mind game you want, but the Biblical Scriptures will expose your heresy

You want to say Amos 9 was fulfilled at Jesus' first coming and that James is confirming this very fact in Acts 15


Wrong!

I have bolded the, 'I will return' so that you can't miss it

Jesus' first coming was not the 'Return'

Many Gentiles will seek Jesus as Savior and Lord during the Tribulation/Second Coming and also during the Millennial Reign (Zechariah 8 & 14)


Acts 15:15-17 – And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


You can try to spin and twist things however you want, but the first coming was not the 'Return' and Amos 9 and Acts 15 have nothing to do with 70 AD,


Your whole 'Speculative Subjective Eisegesis' (presuppositions, agendas and biases) is laughable




RCM
 
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