Reformist basics.

Synergy

Active member
Let me get this straight. Reformers advance the theory that no one can do anything spiritually right before regeneration. Regeneration happens totally unbeknownst to that person because he has no spiritual discernment to begin with. And furthermore, that person gets preserved in that spiritual state no matter what or how many atrocities that person commits. Am I correct in my assessment of Reformist theology? I have multiple questions about the above but I wanted to get my basic understanding of Reformist theology straight.
 

Synergy

Active member
Based upon your previous posts, I doubt that your assessment would be acceptable.
So, are you saying that it is NOT acceptable to believe that no one can do anything spiritually right before regeneration, that Regeneration happens totally unbeknownst to that person because he has no spiritual discernment to begin with, and furthermore, that person gets preserved in that spiritual state no matter what or how many atrocities that person commits? That sounds so Arminian.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
So, are you saying that it is NOT acceptable to believe that no one can do anything spiritually right before regeneration, that Regeneration happens totally unbeknownst to that person because he has no spiritual discernment to begin with, and furthermore, that person gets preserved in that spiritual state no matter what or how many atrocities that person commits? That sounds so Arminian.

It doesn't look like I said any of what you posting. Therefore I did not say it. But I do see that you have posted this idea before.
Synergy
No. My Bible has both choose and believe Christ together, united, coupled. Can you comprehend that?
Joe said:
No, of course it doesn’t does it? But you read that right in there don’t you? Yes, you do. Why else would you remove one word with meaning and replace it with another word with a different meaning?

Gee, and just when you thought your haughty attitude got you a victory. smh
So let's proceed to my inquiry, unless you're too ashamed to reply. You say that you existed as a non-volitional being before believing. And then you became a volitional being after being zapped with belief from on high. And you're now in a preserved state as the P in TULIP signifies. Am I correct in my perception?

I also saw that you avoided the question about naming the Bible translation you use. Why won't you answer it? You made a claim that "your" translation said one thing, but you refuse to name it.

Why would anyone want to have a one-sided conversation with you?
 

Synergy

Active member
It doesn't look like I said any of what you posting. Therefore I did not say it. But I do see that you have posted this idea before.

I also saw that you avoided the question about naming the Bible translation you use. Why won't you answer it? You made a claim that "your" translation said one thing, but you refuse to name it.

Here you go:

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Jos 24:21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Jos 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Jos 24:25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
Jos 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
Jos 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
Jos 24:28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Prov 3:31 Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Note: It's a given that one believes when he serves the Lord.

Why would anyone want to have a one-sided conversation with you?

It ends up being one-sided because Reformists are afraid to answer my questions.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Here you go:

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Jos 24:21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Jos 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Jos 24:25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
Jos 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
Jos 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
Jos 24:28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Prov 3:31 Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Note: It's a given that one believes when he serves the Lord.



It ends up being one-sided because Reformists are afraid to answer my questions.

Not even close. You have submitted at least 5 different threads with the same theme. I would call that a thread that is a divisive, complete with all that divisive posts consist of. See for yourself:
Let me get this straight. Reformers advance the theory that no one can do anything spiritually right before regeneration. Regeneration happens totally unbeknownst to that person because he has no spiritual discernment to begin with. And furthermore, that person gets preserved in that spiritual state no matter what or how many atrocities that person commits. Am I correct in my assessment of Reformist theology? I have multiple questions about the above but I wanted to get my basic understanding of Reformist theology straight.
It reeks of sarcasm, character assassination and nonsense.

So, you tell me, should I report your OP to Admin?

CARM is a discussion forum not the attack forum to bully those who hold to different doctrine than you do.

The tenor of your OP shows you do not intend to discuss things.
 

Synergy

Active member
Not even close. You have submitted at least 5 different threads with the same theme. I would call that a thread that is a divisive, complete with all that divisive posts consist of. See for yourself:
I see you offered no Reformist counterargument to the multiple verses I forwarded. Instead you call up your victimization card because I quoted Bible verses to you. Is that how Reformers respond to Bible verses?
It reeks of sarcasm, character assassination and nonsense.

So, you tell me, should I report your OP to Admin?

CARM is a discussion forum not the attack forum to bully those who hold to different doctrine than you do.

The tenor of your OP shows you do not intend to discuss things.
My OP is asking a question. Why don't you respond to it? Set us Arminian "Bullies" straight, with Bible verses. Is that too much to ask for?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I see you offered no Reformist counterargument to the multiple verses I forwarded. Instead you call up your victimization card because I quoted Bible verses to you. Is that how Reformers respond to Bible verses?

My OP is asking a question. Why don't you respond to it? Set us Arminian "Bullies" straight, with Bible verses. Is that too much to ask for?
Let's start with your first one. "Choose this day whom you will serve". I need two things, audience, context.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Here you go:

Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
Jos 24:21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.
Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
Jos 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Jos 24:25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
Jos 24:26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
Jos 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
Jos 24:28 So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Prov 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Prov 3:31 Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Note: It's a given that one believes when he serves the Lord.



It ends up being one-sided because Reformists are afraid to answer my questions.

In a DIFFERENT thread, you claimed that "[your] Bible has choose and believe Christ together".

But you didn't provide any support for your claim in THAT thread.
Instead, you created a NEW thread, and expect us to know to follow you along. That reeks of game-playing to me.

But that's okay... So now you're claiming that THIS is the thread where you allegedly answered with a text that allegedly says "choose and believe Christ together".

Okay, so you quote Josh 24.
Josh. 24 does NOT say "choose and believe Christ".
It has the word "choose" in it, but nothing about "choosing Christ", and nothing about "believing Christ".

Deut. 30 has the word "choose" in it.
But nothing about "believing Christ".

Prov. 1 talks about "choosing", but NOTHING about "believing Christ".

The only logical conclusion is that NO SCRIPTURE supports your false claims.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
So, are you saying that it is NOT acceptable to believe that no one can do anything spiritually right before regeneration, that Regeneration happens totally unbeknownst to that person because he has no spiritual discernment to begin with, and furthermore, that person gets preserved in that spiritual state no matter what or how many atrocities that person commits? That sounds so Arminian.
Does the person being raised/resurrected from the dead know what is happening to them and what role do they play in their resurrection from the dead ?

What role do the dead play in their bodily/physical Resurrection ?

Are they active or passive ?
 

Synergy

Active member
Let's start with your first one. "Choose this day whom you will serve". I need two things, audience, context.
It is Joshua's farewell address to all the people of Israel. Therefore his message is for wishy-washy people, undecided people, strong believers, leaders, unbelievers, doubting people, all types of people, the whole lot of Israel. The main thrust is choose whom you will believe and therefore serve.
 

Synergy

Active member
Does the person being raised/resurrected from the dead know what is happening to them and what role do they play in their resurrection from the dead ?

What role do the dead play in their bodily/physical Resurrection ?

Are they active or passive ?
You're presenting a different context. One is much more conscious and capable of actions when alive. You're comparing apples and oranges. Stick with the original context: breathing people.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
It is Joshua's farewell address to all the people of Israel. Therefore his message is for wishy-washy people, undecided people, strong believers, leaders, unbelievers, doubting people, all types of people, the whole lot of Israel. The main thrust is choose whom you will believe and therefore serve.
So it's specifically addressed to the people of Israel and not meant to be understood universally.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
It is Joshua's farewell address to all the people of Israel. Therefore his message is for wishy-washy people, undecided people, strong believers, leaders, unbelievers, doubting people, all types of people, the whole lot of Israel. The main thrust is choose whom you will believe and therefore serve.

Maybe English isn't your first language?
Either that, or you were too lazy to even read your own "proof-text".

The passage YOU quoted was EXPLICITLY addressed to people who REJECTED the God of Abraham:

Josh. 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
You're presenting a different context. One is much more conscious and capable of actions when alive. You're comparing apples and oranges. Stick with the original context: breathing people.
except breathing people are dead in their sins as per Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2. When we were dead in our sin, God made us alive.

dead is dead whether or not we are talking about the physical or spiritual dead. dead means unable to respond to stimuli. The physically dead cannot respond to their 5 senses just as the spiritually dead cannot respond to the Spirit. Hence the need for Resurrection/Regeneration of the dead.

hope this helps !!!
 

Synergy

Active member
In a DIFFERENT thread, you claimed that "[your] Bible has choose and believe Christ together".

But you didn't provide any support for your claim in THAT thread.
Instead, you created a NEW thread, and expect us to know to follow you along. That reeks of game-playing to me.
BelovedDaughter brought that discussion over in Post #4 and I responded to it in this thread. Sue me if I did anything wrong.
But that's okay... So now you're claiming that THIS is the thread where you allegedly answered with a text that allegedly says "choose and believe Christ together".

Okay, so you quote Josh 24.
Josh. 24 does NOT say "choose and believe Christ".
It has the word "choose" in it, but nothing about "choosing Christ", and nothing about "believing Christ".
Who else is the "Lord" in the OT other than Christ? What does Reformist theology say about the eternality of Christ?
Also, how can anyone serve the Lord without believing in Him? Serving and believing go hand in hand. Believing is an integral part of serving.
The word choose is present, as you mentioned.
Therefore, it's all there. My point stands that we are to choose and believe Christ.
Deut. 30 has the word "choose" in it.
But nothing about "believing Christ".

Prov. 1 talks about "choosing", but NOTHING about "believing Christ".

The only logical conclusion is that NO SCRIPTURE supports your false claims.
You know, you sound just like the JW's that say that since the word "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Bible therefore it's a false teaching. Do JW's and Reformers read from the same playbook?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Who else is the "Lord" in the OT other than Christ?

So you deny the Father?
Good to know...

Meanwhile, you are using RATIONALIZATION and ASSUMPTION rather than Scripture.

What does Reformist theology say about the eternality of Christ?

I'm waiting for you to show us SCRIPTURE which says, "choose and believe Christ".

You seem to be trying to RUN AWAY by trying to change the subject.
Thank you for the admission that you can't demonstrate your false claim from Scripture.

Also, how can anyone serve the Lord without believing in Him?

Another ASSUMPTION on your part.
Thank you for your tacit admission that you can't demonstrate your false claim from Scripture.

Serving and believing go hand in hand.

Okay, let's go with that...
Show us SCRIPTURE which teaches, "serving and believing go hand in hand".

At some point you have to defend your claims with SCRIPTURE.

Believing is an integral part of serving.

And Scripture teaches this..... where?

The word choose is present, as you mentioned.

Yeah... Just like a kidnapper inventing his own message by rearranging words from a newspaper.

I'm not really impressed.

Therefore, it's all there. My point stands that we are to choose and believe Christ.

<Chuckle>

Without an IOTA of Scripture.

You know, you sound just like the JW's that say that since the word "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Bible therefore it's a false teaching. Do JW's and Reformers read from the same playbook?

Logical fallacy: Guilt by association.
Logical fallacy: Shifting the burden of proof.
 

Synergy

Active member
Maybe English isn't your first language?
Either that, or you were too lazy to even read your own "proof-text".

The passage YOU quoted was EXPLICITLY addressed to people who REJECTED the God of Abraham:

Josh. 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Context, context, context.

Josh 24:1 Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and called for the elders of Israel, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.
Josh 24:2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: 'Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods.

Are you seriously saying that all the tribes of Israel and all the people "are people who REJECTED the God of Abraham"?!? Seriously?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Context, context, context.

Josh 24:1 Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem and called for the elders of Israel, for their heads, for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.
Josh 24:2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: 'Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods.

Are you seriously saying that all the tribes of Israel and all the people "are people who REJECTED the God of Abraham"?!? Seriously?

Sorry, quoting vv.1-2 doesn't make v.15 (which YOU quoted) go away:

Josh. 24:15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Please explain to me what you think "it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD" means.

Or run away from it again. I don't care either way... ;)
 

Synergy

Active member
So you deny the Father?
Good to know...
So you don't believe that it was Christ the Lord who appeared to the OT Prophets? That's a discussion for another topic.
Meanwhile, you are using RATIONALIZATION and ASSUMPTION rather than Scripture.
I'm waiting for you to show us SCRIPTURE which says, "choose and believe Christ".
You seem to be trying to RUN AWAY by trying to change the subject.
Thank you for the admission that you can't demonstrate your false claim from Scripture.
Another ASSUMPTION on your part.
Thank you for your tacit admission that you can't demonstrate your false claim from Scripture.
Okay, let's go with that...
Show us SCRIPTURE which teaches, "serving and believing go hand in hand".
At some point you have to defend your claims with SCRIPTURE.
And Scripture teaches this..... where?
Yeah... Just like a kidnapper inventing his own message by rearranging words from a newspaper.
I'm not really impressed.
<Chuckle>
Without an IOTA of Scripture.
Logical fallacy: Guilt by association.
Logical fallacy: Shifting the burden of proof.
To serve is to worship. To serve is not some mindless exercise. One must believe in that which he worships. To worship something that you do not believe is to split your personality into two. Schizophrenia is not my bag of tea.
 
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