Reformist basics.

[Manfred]

The thing is, our God-given Natural faculties are Fallen; this is why Atheists can't perceive anything Good about the God of the Bible. All people are Naturally born as Atheists since All need to be Converted, so no one can see anything Good about the God of the Bible without the Help of the God of the Bible...

Our Fallen God-given Natural faculties belong to the Doctrine of Total Depravity...

Spot on

 

[Manfred]

Whatever floats your boat.
You think we believe the devil has more authority?
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Romans 11:8 ESV
You think that scripture teaches that Satan has authority over anything.
You are sadly mistaken.

It also again shows your total ignorance of reformed theory.

We believe the scriptures that teach God will have mercy on whom he has mercy. That is something you cannot believe.

Note, I wrote theory in error.
The word is theology.

 

[ReverendRV]

Spot on

Thanks. When we have been here at CARM for so long, we should be able to cut to the Chase instantly. Calvinists should be able to give 'the' answer to all who ask of them, instead of giving sass to all who ask for answers of them. If we really wanted to end this age-old debate, I think we could...

That's Sage-Stage...

 

[guest1]

Thanks. When we have been here at CARM for so long, we should be able to cut to the Chase instantly. Calvinists should be able to give 'the' answer to all who ask of them, instead of giving sass to all who ask for answers of them. If we really wanted to end this age-old debate, I think we could if we really wanted to...

That's Sage-Stage...

But you can see how certain unnamed posters will divert, avoid, not address even the basic meaning of words and run away from dealing with biblical definitions or change them. Until we can come to a common understanding of language at its most basic and fundamental level we will be going in circles with these posters. Its obvious to us as we can see right through their tactics and avoidance of our points we are making regarding mans natural condition from birth.

And all I can say is they are pelagian at a foundational level. Even a certain poster with the most replies on the forum "claims" to believe in Gods grace comes first ends up denying it by saying the natural/dead man can choose God. Its an oxymoronic belief/statement.

 

[ReverendRV]

But you can see how certain unnamed posters will divert, avoid, not address even the basic meaning of words and run away from dealing with biblical definitions or change them. Until we can come to a common understanding of language at its most basic and fundamental level we will be going in circles with these posters. Its obvious to us as we can see right through their tactics and avoidance of our points we are making regarding mans natural condition from birth.

And all I can say is they are pelagian at a foundational level. Even a certain poster with the most replies on the forum "claims" to believe in Gods grace comes first ends up denying it by saying the natural/dead man can choose God. Its an oxymoronic belief/statement.

I know exactly who you mean and agree with you. I've gotten him to agree we're Totally Unable without God's prevening Grace, maybe a hundred times? But right away he'll start teaching we're Totally Able again. When someone agrees with a Fundamental of the Faith, and disagrees with that Fundamental of the Faith at the same time; it's got to be Cognitive Dissonance, or it's him Patronizing me because it's an undeniable point. The Law of Excluded Middle kicks in, and it's one or the other...

 

[guest1]

I know exactly who you mean and agree with you. I've gotten him to agree we're Totally Unable without God's prevening Grace, maybe a hundred times? But right away he'll start teaching we're Totally Able again. When someone agrees with a Fundamental of the Faith, and disagrees with that Fundamental of the Faith at the same time; it's got to be Cognitive Dissonance, or it's him Patronizing me. The Law of Excluded Middle kicks in, and it's one or the other...

ditto

 

[Synergy]

By Super Natural faculty, I mean the results of Efficacious Grace; something from God that makes a 'real' difference in your life,

That would encompass the gifts that God has bestowed on everyone.

that is not your very own Natural faculty to accomplish without God's help.

What is not accomplished without God’s help? Scientific discoveries, the arts, society, governments, etc… are all accomplished through the minds and talents bestowed on people by God.

For instance, you said we all have a God-given faculty to believe; if so, then we're Saved by our very own Prevenient Faith,

No. Belief allows us to perceive that God offers the gift of eternal life which we choose to accept or not. Eternal life is found only in God. It’s God’s property, not ours but we receive it through repentance and belief.

a Natural faculty we all have?

We have to be very careful how we use the word “natural”. Do you mean 1) faculties void of spirit or 2) the normative state of man which is blessed with God’s gifts of mind and heart? I guess you mean the 2nd definition.

Do Mormons have the Natural faculty for Prevenient Faith, and is this why they are Saved by Grace; after all they can do? For them, Works prevene Grace; and they're saved by their very own Prevenient Works, right?

I can’t speak for Mormons as I am not one myself. I don’t want to misrepresent them. What I can say is that everyone (including Mormons) who chooses God makes right use of his God-given faculties. Everyone who doesn't choose God makes poor use or sears his God-given faculties.

So why are you saved by your very own Natural faculty of Prevenient Will before Grace really 'helps' you as the first-factor of your Salvation?

God’s Grace is always present to help you, no matter what you call it, Prevenient or something else.

If they also need God's Grace as their first-factor instead of Grace as they're last-factor; why do you not also need Grace before your Will to Believe could ever actuate? In truth, God's Grace prevenes our Free Will...

Again, God’s Grace is always present at all times to help you.

Are you Saved by your very own Prevenient Faith?

No. Repentance has to be manifested before one is regenerated.

My question about Jesus' number of wills was very relevant because I wanted to see if Reformists believed in Monothelitism, very much related to the topic of choice and will. Looks like you don’t which I am happy for.

 

[Synergy]

Sorry Jesus makes us alive first from the dead- when we were DEAD in sin, God/Christ made us alive.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses

hope this helps !!!

I agree that unregenerated man is in fact dead in his sins but nowhere does it say that we are void of any Grace that God has the ability to bestow on us at anytime anywhere. In fact, God will not despise a contrite heart which means that everyone has been given the capacity to choose to follow God or not.

More to the point of that repentance must come before regeneration, Acts 2:38 clearly promotes it:

Then Peter said unto them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Synergy]

Please clarify, would you say everyone has a New Heart?

A new heart is a regenerated heart. Not everyone is regenerated.

 

[Synergy]

Still makes no sense.....how, why, does, would...one make right right of the God - faculties?

Do you have a bible verse or two that supports your concept?

There are as many ways to choose God as there are people in this world. One can choose God through one’s heart, one can choose God through one’s mind being convinced, one can choose God through his conscience, etc…. ad infinitum.

 

[Theo1689]

Still makes no sense.....how, why, does, would...one make right right of the God - faculties?

Do you have a bible verse or two that supports your concept?

There are as many ways to choose God as there are people in this world. One can choose God through one’s heart, one can choose God through one’s mind being convinced, one can choose God through his conscience, etc…. ad infinitum.

So the answer to his question:

Do you have a bible verse or two that supports your concept?

... is apparently, "No, you do NOT have a Bible verse or two that supports your concept".

 

[Synergy]

It seems to me that when All have The Natural faculties to believe, then Grace is unneeded...

Grace is in our God-given faculties, so Grace is always needed.

He agrees we need the Prevenient Grace/help of God in order to believe. My argument is good; until they realize it corners them. Then their agreement with me and their agreement with their argument traps them in the Event Horizon of a Logical Black Hole known as Cognitive Dissonance...

Reformist theories (TULIP) are air-tight in a self-contained environment. When the light of the NT shines on them they decompose rapidly.

 

[Theo1689]

Reformist theories (TULIP) are air-tight in a self-contained environment. When the light of the NT shines on them they decompose rapidly.

Actually, it was "the light of the NT" shining on me that CONVINCED me to embrace the Biblical "TULIP".

 

[Synergy]

You do it by a self generated choice.

God places a desire in my heart, and I follow as the Spirit leads.

It's all about you, you, you isn't it?

It’s a cooperative choice, a synergistic choice, not a mindless choice as Reformist theories promote.

 

[Theo1689]

It’s a cooperative choice, a synergistic choice,

That's not Biblical.

not a mindless choice as Reformist theories promote.

And that's NOT what "Reformist theories promote".

 

[Synergy]

That is clearly not being lead. That would be choosing what YOU want.

Choosing to follow is not being lead? By choosing to be lead that means that I will be lead if God chooses to do so. There is a reason why we were gifted with minds to make choices.

 

[Synergy]

Go to the Atheists boards and go and evangelize there.
Let's see how many of them are using their God given faculties to perceive ANYTHING good about God.

When aetheists choose to not believe God then it’s in God’s hands.

You guys keep proving that you are incapable of knowing God in the flesh, but you keep insisting that you can.

Only the totally degenerated is incapable of knowing God. God’s invisible attributes are clearly seen by everyone who chooses to do so through his God-given faculties by the world He created.

 

[Synergy]

Love every one?
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21 ESV

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

bible.com

Oh, he loves everyone. Even those who hate Him.

He sure showed those Pharisees a lot of love.

That's called tough love in modern day terminology.

 

[Synergy]

The thing is, our God-given Natural faculties are Fallen; this is why Atheists can't perceive anything Good about the God of the Bible.

The road to perceiving God is available to everyone who chooses to do so according to Romans 1:20-22:

20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

All people are Naturally born as Atheists since All need to be Converted,

Most children are open to God and then become atheistic as modern secular teachings infect them.

so no one can see anything Good about the God of the Bible without the Help of the God of the Bible...

I never argued against that.

Our Fallen God-given Natural faculties belong to the Doctrine of Total Depravity...

Only if God gifts us with totally depraved faculties. Are you willing to go with that?

 

[Synergy]

But you can see how certain unnamed posters will divert, avoid, not address even the basic meaning of words and run away from dealing with biblical definitions or change them. Until we can come to a common understanding of language at its most basic and fundamental level we will be going in circles with these posters.

and which language would that be?

Its obvious to us as we can see right through their tactics and avoidance of our points we are making regarding mans natural condition from birth.

And all I can say is they are pelagian at a foundational level. Even a certain poster with the most replies on the forum "claims" to believe in Gods grace comes first ends up denying it by saying the natural/dead man can choose God. Its an oxymoronic belief/statement.

I for one am very far from being Pelagian who say that we can be saved without God's Divine Grace. In fact, I am at the diametrically opposite spectrum when I say that at every point in time we are dependent on God's Divine Grace for everything good.