Reformist basics.

[Synergy]

When I read this, it seems you actually believe we don't need any help from God.

Of course we need help from God. From who else does everyone receive his/her God-given mind, heart, conscience, etc...?

My argument is pretty good; except for those who know it's a good point, but don't want to budge.

Who are they?

Currently you say we need God's help to believe; and you say we don't need Gods help to believe.

We always need God's help to believe. We have all been helped through the gifts that God has bestowed on everyone - but we are responsible to make proper use of those gifts to choose God. That's where responsibility comes in. Without that choice then it's not our responsibility which makes shambles of the entire Bible.

Other Calvinists will now ask you just what was the difference for you/those who believe, and those who didn't believe; was it you?

He who chooses God makes right use of his God-given faculties. He who doesn't choose God makes poor use or sears his God-given faculties.

You say the difference is a God given faculty; and I assume you mean a Natural faculty instead of a Supernatural faculty.

I mean: one's heart, mind, conscience, free choice, etc... Everyone has them.

If you mean we have a God-given Supernatural faculty, that's Help from God; and we're Totally Unable before Grace.

Please explain "supernatural faculty".

The Law of Excluded Middle wants you to choose between your natural Total Ability or your natural Total Inability...

We are all naturally blessed with God-given faculties that enables us to choose.

Would you consider anyone who believes as I described, even if it doesn't describe you, a person like that makes Grace no longer Grace?

Grace is always Grace. A gift is always a gift - but one has to willingly reach out to that gift and appropriate it. That's the God-given free choice that we have all been blessed with. I know it's scary to realize how much responsibility is entailed in that fact but God wants us to mature as true Icons of Christ.

I've got a question for you: How many wills does Jesus have?

 

[Synergy]

There lies the delima.....one has to make a decision. The question then becomes, what is the decision to accept Jesus or reject Jesus based upon? IQ? Where you grew up? What school you went too? What family you were born into?
The answer would have to be "none of the above". Salvation has nothing to do with the above.....unless God is using one or several of the situations to bring you to Jesus.

He who chooses God makes right use of his God-given faculties. He who doesn't choose God makes poor use or sears his God-given faculties.

You in and of yourself can't come to Christ unless God brings you....you don't step over a moll-hill instead God drags you over the mole-hill.

Who claimed that “you in and of yourself” can come to Christ? I didn’t.

 

[Synergy]

Yes they forget that God is active and we are passive in regeneration. Those who are dead by definition are passive.

They forget that repentance must come before regeneration, rendering reformist monergism anti-Biblical.

 

[Synergy]

You are either lead by the Spirit and are obedient to the leading of the Spirit, which is not self choice.
or
You are making choices hoping that the right choice was made. That is being disobedient.

God does not drag people kicking and screaming in heaven. We have a choice in the matter.

When I am lead to worship God, I do not have to make a choice, I am obedient to the leading of the Spirit.
you
You make a choice to worship God without the leading of the Spirit is worshiping in the flesh and not in Spirit.

I choose to be lead by the Spirit when I come to Church and worship God.

 

[Synergy]

But you do not worship in spirit and truth.
You make a choice to worship without being lead into worship by the Spirit of God.

I am lead by the Spirit by choosing to align my will with His.

It is all about you, you, you and your choices.

Sounds like you're mistaking me for one of your colleagues.

For the reformed it is all about GOD,GOD,GOD and His glory.

With no room for the Icon of Christ.

 

[Synergy]

You choose to accept a gift without perception of what it is, you then receive perception after accepting it and then choose to grow in it.

No. You choose to accept a gift with whatever perception your God-given faculties afford you. And then over time you grow in Christ.

 

[Synergy]

Those who choose to sear their gifts of conscience, mind, heart, etc....

Like these:
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Nice choice above.......

Excellent verse. The only way that verse aligns with Reformist theories is if the devil has been given more authority than the God-given gifts God has bestowed on everyone. Thank you for choosing that verse which reinforces Arminianism.

 

[Synergy]

Who is the us in your scenario above?

Everyone who has strayed. Don't tell me that you choose to believe that Christ does not love everyone. Say it ain't so.

 

[ReverendRV]

Please explain "supernatural faculty".

I've got a question for you: How many wills does Jesus have?

By Super Natural faculty, I mean the results of Efficacious Grace; something from God that makes a 'real' difference in your life, that is not your very own Natural faculty to accomplish without God's help. For instance, you said we all have a God-given faculty to believe; if so, then we're Saved by our very own Prevenient Faith, a Natural faculty we all have? Do Mormons have the Natural faculty for Prevenient Faith, and is this why they are Saved by Grace; after all they can do? For them, Works prevene Grace; and they're saved by their very own Prevenient Works, right? So why are you saved by your very own Natural faculty of Prevenient Will before Grace really 'helps' you as the first-factor of your Salvation? If they also need God's Grace as their first-factor instead of Grace as they're last-factor; why do you not also need Grace before your Will to Believe could ever actuate? In truth, God's Grace prevenes our Free Will...

Are you Saved by your very own Prevenient Faith?

Jesus has one Hypostatic Will of the two Willis of God and Man. "Not my Will but your Will be done". In answering you, I ask you not to change the subject...

 

[guest1]

They forget that repentance must come before regeneration, rendering reformist monergism anti-Biblical.

Sorry Jesus makes us alive first from the dead- when we were DEAD in sin, God/Christ made us alive.

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses

hope this helps !!!

 

[ReverendRV]

I Iean: one's heart, mind, conscience, free choice, etc... Everyone has them.

Please clarify, would you say everyone has a New Heart?

 

[CrowCross]

He who chooses God makes right use of his God-given faculties. He who doesn't choose God makes poor use or sears his God-given faculties.

Still makes no sense.....how, why, does, would...one make right right of the God - faculties?

Do you have a bible verse or two that supports your concept?

 

[ReverendRV]

Still makes no sense.....how, why, does, would...one make right right of the God - faculties?

Do you have a bible verse or two that supports your concept?

It seems to me that when All have The Natural faculties to believe, then Grace is unneeded...

He agrees we need the Prevenient Grace/help of God in order to believe. My argument is good; until they realize it corners them. Then their agreement with me and their agreement with their argument traps them in the Event Horizon of a Logical Black Hole known as Cognitive Dissonance...

 

[Manfred]

God does not drag people kicking and screaming in heaven. We have a choice in the matter.

I choose to be lead by the Spirit when I come to Church and worship God.

You do it by a self generated choice.

God places a desire in my heart, and I follow as the Spirit leads.

It's all about you, you, you isn't it?

 

[Manfred]

I am lead by the Spirit by choosing to align my will with His.

That is clearly not being lead. That would be choosing what YOU want.

Sounds like you're mistaking me for one of your colleagues.

No. As above, free choise is all about self.
Your comment that Calvinists are all about self is a strawman as we believe God's choice is Sovereign.
You like others pretend you know all about reformed theology, but comments like this show your complete ignorance.

With no room for the Icon of Christ.

Not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Manfred]

No. You choose to accept a gift with whatever perception your God-given faculties afford you. And then over time you grow in Christ.

Go to the Atheists boards and go and evangelize there.
Let's see how many of them are using their God given faculties to perceive ANYTHING good about God.

You guys keep proving that you are incapable of knowing God in the flesh, but you keep insisting that you can.

 

[guest1]

Go to the Atheists boards and go and evangelize there.
Let's see how many of them are using their God given faculties to perceive ANYTHING good about God.

You guys keep proving that you are incapable of knowing God in the flesh, but you keep insisting that you can.

Excellent response and the point being made is as clear as the mid day sun in summer.

 

[Manfred]

Excellent verse. The only way that verse aligns with Reformist theories is if the devil has been given more authority than the God-given gifts God has bestowed on everyone. Thank you for choosing that verse which reinforces Arminianism.

Whatever floats your boat.
You think we believe the devil has more authority?
as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Romans 11:8 ESV
You think that scripture teaches that Satan has authority over anything.
You are sadly mistaken.

It also again shows your total ignorance of reformed theory.

We believe the scriptures that teach God will have mercy on whom he has mercy. That is something you cannot believe.

 

[Manfred]

Everyone who has strayed. Don't tell me that you choose to believe that Christ does not love everyone. Say it ain't so.

Love every one?
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21 ESV

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

bible.com

Oh, he loves everyone. Even those who hate Him.

He sure showed those Pharisees a lot of love.

 

[ReverendRV]

Go to the Atheists boards and go and evangelize there.
Let's see how many of them are using their God given faculties to perceive ANYTHING good about God.

You guys keep proving that you are incapable of knowing God in the flesh, but you keep insisting that you can.

The thing is, our God-given Natural faculties are Fallen; this is why Atheists can't perceive anything Good about the God of the Bible. All people are Naturally born as Atheists since All need to be Converted, so no one can see anything Good about the God of the Bible without the Help of the God of the Bible...

Our Fallen God-given Natural faculties belong to the Doctrine of Total Depravity...