Regeneration - A NT Doctrine

armylngst

Active member
Sorry that is just your opinion
You know, I am getting a little tired of having the right opinion all the time. Down right tiring. [That is a pretty hefty serving of sarcasm...]
Colossians 3
"11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[b] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]"

Just as the circumcision was spiritual and not the literal cutting of flesh so also the baptism was spiritual
Yes, but the verse you used was about physical baptism, which is why it is used to support baptismal regeneration, and not your opinion. The problem is, your opinion in scripture does not support your original premise, so you chose to support baptismal regeneration.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You know, I am getting a little tired of having the right opinion all the time. Down right tiring. [That is a pretty hefty serving of sarcasm...]

Yes, but the verse you used was about physical baptism, which is why it is used to support baptismal regeneration, and not your opinion. The problem is, your opinion in scripture does not support your original premise, so you chose to support baptismal regeneration.
Sorry you are assuming that

Colossians 3
"11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[b] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]"

Just as the circumcision was spiritual and not the literal cutting of flesh so also the baptism was spiritual

The point is This was a spiritual resurrection and it was through faith

I do not believe baptismal regeneration nor do I remove the verse from the bible

Its there it needs to be dealt with and I did

and the
 

armylngst

Active member
Sorry you are assuming that

Colossians 3
"11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[b] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]"

Just as the circumcision was spiritual and not the literal cutting of flesh so also the baptism was spiritual

The point is This was a spiritual resurrection and it was through faith

I do not believe baptismal regeneration nor do I remove the verse from the bible

Its there it needs to be dealt with and I did

and the
Except that this verse, if used as you use it, would be baptismal regeneration. Paul is clear that he is talking about actual, physical baptism, along with the spiritual imagery, but it is still speaking of the physical baptism. The wording Paul used makes that clear. having been buried with him in baptism [the physical event], in which [the physical baptism] you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God... The physical in line with the spiritual imagery. As such, using this verse as you used it is in support of baptismal regeneration. That is why it is one of the big verses used to support it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Except that this verse, if used as you use it, would be baptismal regeneration. Paul is clear that he is talking about actual, physical baptism, along with the spiritual imagery, but it is still speaking of the physical baptism. The wording Paul used makes that clear. having been buried with him in baptism [the physical event], in which [the physical baptism] you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God... The physical in line with the spiritual imagery. As such, using this verse as you used it is in support of baptismal regeneration. That is why it is one of the big verses used to support it.

Again you just ignore what I stated

Colossians 3
"11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[b] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]"

Just as the circumcision was spiritual and not the literal cutting of flesh so also the baptism was spiritual

The point is This was a spiritual resurrection and it was through faith

I do not believe baptismal regeneration nor do I remove the verse from the bible

Its there it needs to be dealt with and I did

Have you ?
 

JDS

Active member
Yet the OT prophets had the spirit of Christ in them according to Peter .


1 Peter
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow

hope this helps !!!

I rest my case!
Being unreasonable with the scriptures that clearly teach regeneration through the indwelling Spirit of Christ, predicated upon his death and resurrection and his blood that washes away sin of any and all who will believe in him moves you from ignorance to willful ignorance IMO. To dismiss the New Testament teaching of the glories of Christ with a single verse whose context in no way deals with any concept of being born again, a son of God by birth, is one reason there is much division and false doctrine. This is especially true when the New Testament teaches us that Jesus Christ was and is the "firstborn" son of God from the dead. (the operative phrase is "from the dead" a condition all of us share before we are regenerated by the Spirit) The New Testament teaches us that his birth took place when the Spirit quickened it at the tomb and raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (one cannot be the firstborn if he is not the first born)

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Compare these two passages and you will see that God the Father thought that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a birth, the first birth of many births like it, a birth that all sons of God must experience to be in the family of God.


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This is not speaking of his physical birth in Bethlehem but his spiritual birth at the resurrection from the dead.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

No one in the Old Testament times was born again. No one was a son of God by birth. Men are born of the Spirit of God that Jesus Christ poured out of himself on the cross of Calvary when he died for us so we could have his life. The Spirit, the life of God, was symbolized by the water that came out with the blood, the life of the flesh, when the Roman soldier pierced him with the sword.

Why not be instructed from the scriptures?
 
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civic

Well-known member
Being unreasonable with the scriptures that clearly teach regeneration through the indwelling Spirit of Christ, predicated upon his death and resurrection and his blood that washes away sin of any and all who will believe in him moves you from ignorance to willful ignorance IMO. To dismiss the New Testament teaching of the glories of Christ with a single verse whose context in no way deals with any concept of being born again, a son of God by birth, is one reason there is much division and false doctrine. This is especially true when the New Testament teaches us that Jesus Christ was and is the "firstborn" son of God from the dead. (the operative phrase is "from the dead" a condition all of us share before we are regenerated by the Spirit) The New Testament teaches us that his birth took place when the Spirit quickened it at the tomb and raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren (one cannot be the firstborn if he is not the first born)

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Compare these two passages and you will see that God the Father thought that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a birth, the first birth of many births like it, a birth that all sons of God must experience to be in the family of God.


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

This is not speaking of his physical birth in Bethlehem but his spiritual birth at the resurrection from the dead.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

No one in the Old Testament times was born again. No one was a son of God by birth. Men are born of the Spirit of God that Jesus Christ poured out of himself on the cross of Calvary when he died for us so we could have his life. The Spirit, the life of God, was symbolized by the water that came out with the blood, the life of the flesh, when the Roman soldier pierced him with the sword.

Why not be instructed from the scriptures?
why not believe 1 Peter 1:11 ?

the Spirit of Christ was IN THEM ?

and you agreed regeneration is the spirit in believers.

game, set and match as they say in the sports world.

next............................................................

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
why not believe 1 Peter 1:11 ?

the Spirit of Christ was IN THEM ?

and you agreed regeneration is the spirit in believers.

game, set and match as they say in the sports world.

next............................................................

hope this helps !!!
It was common in the old testament for leaders and prophets to be anointed with the spirit

Even Saul himself was so anointed and the spirit had left him as the following notes

“16:14-23. As David was invested by the Spirit, that same Spirit left Saul. This is evidence of the fact that the presence or absence of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament says nothing about salvation but only that His power worked in those whom God selected for service (cf. Judges 3:10; 6:34; 13:25; 14:6; 1 Sam. 10:10; 16:13).”

(Eugene H. Merrill, 1 Samuel (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; ed. John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck; Accordance electronic ed. 2 vols.; Wheaton: Victor Books, 1985), 1:448.)
 

JDS

Active member
why not believe 1 Peter 1:11 ?

the Spirit of Christ was IN THEM ?

and you agreed regeneration is the spirit in believers.

game, set and match as they say in the sports world.

next............................................................

hope this helps !!!
You are the one who is trying to win a match. I am trying to get people who are confused to believe the words of scripture and to understand what Jesus Christ has done for us through his death and resurrection. Something that could not have been done any other way. Save our souls and give us eternal life, which is his Spirit. I am not having much success with you. No OT person who had the Spirit of God upon them, or in them, had him there because he was born of the Spirit. God, in the person of the Spirit used men to accomplish his purposes and to be his voice and his arm but no one had the Spirit in them as a matter of being born into the family of God and partaking of the divine nature. The Spirit was in justified men like David and unjustified men, who later died and went to hell, like Saul, a type of the Anti-Christ, the man of sin. The very first thing that Jesus did after he rose from the dead is to begin giving men his Spirit, men who had been his apostles during his earthly ministry. You can read about it in John 20. The first thing God the Father did was to pour out his Spirit on the Jewish nation in Acts 2 so they could be saved.

Ignore the truth if you will and claim a win of an argument, but what will that matter at the judgement?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You are the one who is trying to win a match. I am trying to get people who are confused to believe the words of scripture and to understand what Jesus Christ has done for us through his death and resurrection. Something that could not have been done any other way. Save our souls and give us eternal life, which is his Spirit. I am not having much success with you. No OT person who had the Spirit of God upon them, or in them, had him there because he was born of the Spirit. God, in the person of the Spirit used men to accomplish his purposes and to be his voice and his arm but no one had the Spirit in them as a matter of being born into the family of God and partaking of the divine nature. The Spirit was in justified men like David and unjustified men, who later died and went to hell, like Saul, a type of the Anti-Christ, the man of sin. The very first thing that Jesus did after he rose from the dead is to begin giving men his Spirit, men who had been his apostles during his earthly ministry. You can read about it in John 20. The first thing God the Father did was to pour out his Spirit on the Jewish nation in Acts 2 so they could be saved.

Ignore the truth if you will and claim a win of an argument, but what will that matter at the judgement?
Civic always wins...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You are the one who is trying to win a match. I am trying to get people who are confused to believe the words of scripture and to understand what Jesus Christ has done for us through his death and resurrection. Something that could not have been done any other way. Save our souls and give us eternal life, which is his Spirit. I am not having much success with you. No OT person who had the Spirit of God upon them, or in them, had him there because he was born of the Spirit. God, in the person of the Spirit used men to accomplish his purposes and to be his voice and his arm but no one had the Spirit in them as a matter of being born into the family of God and partaking of the divine nature. The Spirit was in justified men like David and unjustified men, who later died and went to hell, like Saul, a type of the Anti-Christ, the man of sin. The very first thing that Jesus did after he rose from the dead is to begin giving men his Spirit, men who had been his apostles during his earthly ministry. You can read about it in John 20. The first thing God the Father did was to pour out his Spirit on the Jewish nation in Acts 2 so they could be saved.

Ignore the truth if you will and claim a win of an argument, but what will that matter at the judgement?
Come on JDS I agree with you regarding regeneration being a NT reality but this is not a matter upon which eternal judgment hangs
It was common in the old testament for leaders and prophets to be anointed with the spirit

Even Saul himself was so anointed and the spirit had left him as the following notes

“16:14-23. As David was invested by the Spirit, that same Spirit left Saul. This is evidence of the fact that the presence or absence of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament says nothing about salvation but only that His power worked in those whom God selected for service (cf. Judges 3:10; 6:34; 13:25; 14:6; 1 Sam. 10:10; 16:13).”

(Eugene H. Merrill, 1 Samuel (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; ed. John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck; Accordance electronic ed. 2 vols.; Wheaton: Victor Books, 1985), 1:448.)
This is not NT regeneration
 

JDS

Active member
Come on JDS I agree with you regarding regeneration being a NT reality but this is not a matter upon which eternal judgment hangs
What? I am sure I don't understand your conclusion here. Especially in light of this statement.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Are you speaking of the OT saints? I am not sure what you are talking about.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
What? I am sure I don't understand your conclusion here. Especially in light of this statement.

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Are you speaking of the OT saints? I am not sure what you are talking about.
I am talking about whether one believes the old testament saints were regenerated or not

That is not issue for which one might failed to be saved if he believed they were or they were not

Again I agree the old testament saints did not experience NT regeneration

Prophets were anointed with the Spirit for service as were Kings and other important servants of God

Even king Saul had the Spirit and it departed him

This was not regeneration or the permanent indwelling of the spirit promised in the new testament

Christ spoke of

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified”

which awaited Christ's glorification
 

JDS

Active member
I am talking about whether one believes the old testament saints were regenerated or not

That is not issue for which one might failed to be saved if he believed they were or they were not

Again I agree the old testament saints did not experience NT regeneration

Prophets were anointed with the Spirit for service as were Kings and other important servants of God

Even king Saul had the Spirit and it departed him

This was not regeneration or the permanent indwelling of the spirit promised in the new testament

Christ spoke of

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified”

which awaited Christ's glorification
If you know that, why don't very intelligent people, like the people on this forum, who are shown it from the scriptures know that? It is a simple truth, don't you think? I have made a very compelling presentation of the doctrine and no one but you has even touched it. It makes me wonder if people do not want to be instructed into truth lest they are compelled to reassess what they have been taught and have believed and make adjustments. I have suggested willing ignorance as a possibility. I do not think I am wrong about that.

You said the following.

That is not issue for which one might failed to be saved if he believed they were or they were not

It does indicate that none of these fellows actually know what salvation is and are able to define it from the scriptures, in context. I know it does not take much faith to be saved but I also know that the Spirit who lives in us bears witness to truth. It is troubling to see such animosity towards this truth about the Spirit.

You do know that Calvinism has an elaborate doctrine of a sinner needing to be regenerated in order to be saved because he is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and that means he is like Lazarus in the tomb in John 11. They teach that no one can be saved because of this condition and God must wake them up to reality by regenerating them so he can then give them the gift of faith so they can be irresistibly drawn to God and then be saved, I am not sure by what means. They teach that only those who he previously elected sometimes before he created the world are eligible and these are predestined by him to be saved at some point of his choosing in time.

Now, if you have been paying attention to the dialog in this thread you will know that all these men believe regeneration to be exactly the same in times before the cross of Christ and time after the cross of Christ. His dying and resurrecting made no difference as far as regeneration is concerned. They have a verse that says the Spirit of God was in the prophets of the OT and that settles it. They must have been regenerated because of that.

Now, it seems to me that the gospel of Christ is not the authority of God unto salvation and the good news of it is to be brought to the ears of those who need it, sinners, by those who have been saved in the thinking and teaching of Calvinists because election is the authority of God unto salvation, since no one who was not elected can participate because of their dead condition and the hatefulness of God towards them as sinners and in the absence of any pity he might have had toward them.

I could go on with this but even you would at least agree that at some point the teaching of scripture could get so skewed that it would not really be the gospel any more, don't you? Where would that point be?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have made a very compelling presentation of the doctrine

Apparently most people don't consider it to be nearly as "compelling" as you do.

It makes me wonder if people do not want to be instructed into truth lest they are compelled to reassess what they have been taught and have believed and make adjustments.

Nice personal attack you have there.
We have had wannabe "apologists" try to attack our doctrines for decades (30 years for me), and fail miserably. You don't even BEGIN to touch the top attempts (but failures) that I've had to endure.

Exactly how many times do you expect us to listen to and address the same old garbage we've heard for decades?
Get over yourself.
I'm going to tell you a secret.
You are NOT God.
So stop pretending like you are.

I have suggested willing ignorance as a possibility. I do not think I am wrong about that.

<sigh>
More personal attacks.
Here's a far more likely explanation.... You are in error, and we have the truth.
And your error doesn't convince us to abandon truth.

I could go on with this

Please don't bother.
Nobody's interested in your false teaching.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If you know that, why don't very intelligent people, like the people on this forum, who are shown it from the scriptures know that? It is a simple truth, don't you think? I have made a very compelling presentation of the doctrine and no one but you has even touched it. It makes me wonder if people do not want to be instructed into truth lest they are compelled to reassess what they have been taught and have believed and make adjustments. I have suggested willing ignorance as a possibility. I do not think I am wrong about that.
Well to be honest I have not read very much of your presentation but I had previously done a regeneration study



Regeneration is through the gospel

James 1:18 (NASB)
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.


1 Peter 1:23 (NASB)
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.



1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Predicated on the Resurrection of Christ

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12, 13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Concurrent with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV)
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Only in Christ

1 John 5:12 (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

which led me to believe regeneration was not normative in OT times

You do know that Calvinism has an elaborate doctrine of a sinner needing to be regenerated in order to be saved because he is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins and that means he is like Lazarus in the tomb

Well what a dead man needs is life

according to scripture the way to get life

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

John 5:40 —KJV
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”

John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”


is to believe
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I am talking about whether one believes the old testament saints were regenerated or not

That is not issue for which one might failed to be saved if he believed they were or they were not

Again I agree the old testament saints did not experience NT regeneration

Prophets were anointed with the Spirit for service as were Kings and other important servants of God

Even king Saul had the Spirit and it departed him

This was not regeneration or the permanent indwelling of the spirit promised in the new testament

Christ spoke of

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified”

which awaited Christ's glorification
Regeneration existed in the Old Testament times as much as in the New. Regeneration, or being “born again,” did not exist sacramentally under the Law of Moses, because the Law of Moses was a law of carnal commandments, which God gave to the house of Israel at that time because of the “hardness of their hearts”. But the Old Testament is not confined to the Law of Moses. It included the period of time before Moses, which was not subject to the Law of Moses. Of Abraham for example Jesus said:

John 8:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


If Abraham saw Jesus’ day, that would have included regeneration too. Again, quoting from the words of Jesus:

Luke 16:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


If Abraham was already in the kingdom of God in heaven, he couldn’t have got there without being “regenerated” first:

John 3:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Abrahm not only saw the “kingdom of God in heaven,” in in Luke 16:22 he epitomises the “kingdom of God in heaven;” and he couldn’t have done that without having been regenerated first. As far as John 7:38–39 is concerned, that applies to the saints in Jesus’ own day. It does not mean that the saints prior to that time, such as Abraham for example, could not have received the Holy Ghost as well.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
One cannot be "regenerated" until he is "generated." What does regenerated mean? Well, it means to be born anew. The word is used once in the NT in the context of people being born again and once in the context of the creation being restored to it's pristine condition as at the first. It is a New Testament doctrine because the agent of the New birth for both men and God's creation is Jesus Christ, the son of God, and the work he did in his incarnation and his cross and resurrection.

Let me establish in a couple of verses something about all of us.

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

It is important to know that Seth was by nature like Adam, after he sinned, and God was nowhere around when Seth was generated. Seth was a son of Adam, not a son of God. Adam, however, was the son of God, not by birth, but by creation. He had the Spirit of God in him from his creation and the Spirit is what made him the son of God. Lk 3:38. All the family of Adam from then until now are like Adam after he sinned. They do not have God indwelling them in the person of his Spirit. They are not like God. Because all the family of Adam are like him and all are generated through him and are in his family, he is the federal head of his own race. Nothing can change that. Because they are by nature like the sinning Adam there is no power in them to resist sin. They are dead spiritually, which only means they, like Adam, do not have God in them. It does not mean they cannot hear God speak from the outside of them, but it does mean they do not have him in them to speak to them and give them his inherent power and life as a possession.

But, what if God could produce a birth of a man where he was born both of Adam and of God? What if this person could receive his physical body through Adam's race and the Spirit from God? Would he then be like Adam before he sinned who was created like God and in his image? Yes, he could. And what if he was guided always in everything he did, great or small, by the Spirit of God that was a part of his being that he received from his Father? What if he was tempted in all points like as all Adam's race is, yet without sin? What if the words he spoke were always given him by God and this was made possible because the Spirit in him was omnipresent and was in God, his Father, and him, at the same time, time and distance being no obstacle for communications? What if all his power to do right came from his spiritual being and none came from his flesh? Answer. He would do always those things that please the Father and would never sin. He would by choice never act independently of his Father. He would be perfect.

So, Jesus Christ is a partaker of humanity through his mother and is physical. Yet he is different from any man who ever lived since Adam in that he has the Spirit from his Father, God. He has power over sin. I will post just two verses to demonstrate this, though I could post many.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Now we see that the Spirit is the life of God. As commentary, life in the physical is in the blood. The life of God is the Spirit. Adam's race has life in the blood but not life in the Spirit. Men who are born into the family of Adam are the sons of man. Those who are born into the family of God by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Jesus Christ is called both, son of man and son of God at his first coming. Through his mother he is in the "generation" of Adam. Through his Father he is the "only" begotten of him. Begotten means born. He is the only man who was ever born this way.

Matt 1:1The book of the "generation" of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:

Now that Jesus Christ has been tested as the son of man through all the temptations that are common to Adam's race and through weakness of the flesh and has not sinned, can he be a substitute and endure the penalty for the sin of all of Adam's race, which is death and forever separation from God? The answer is yes, that is why he came. Adam's race can occupy the world and live here until they die physically, but they cannot stay here. They must go somewhere and without the Spirit they cannot go where God is. They must go somewhere where God is not, and the only place where the omnipresent God has chosen not to be is in hell. That is the wages of sin. A thrice holy God cannot fellowship with sin and because of his holy nature God must punish sin and put it away before fellowship with any man is possible.

This is what happened with the sacrifice of the holy Jesus Christ.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
He 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

We know that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day. He was dead. His soul came out of paradise in the center of the earth, the Spirit came back from God who gave it, and the Spirit quickened him by raising his body and glorifying it. Sin is paid for at this moment. God is propitiated for the sins of Adam's race. All sinners have been reconciled by this death of Christ. Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead and the federal head of a new family, the family of God. Any of Adam's race can be forgiven of their sins now and all of Adam's race may be forgiven of their sins. I am going to post some scriptures here for consideration.

Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you,

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (his first birth)
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (his second birth)
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (at the resurrection)
Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: (his first birth)
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. (his second birth)

Continued
Actually, the regeneration is an old testament concept.
We first see it in the life of Saul. 1 Samuel 10:6
We then see it in the life of David. Psalm 51.
We then see it in each of the prophet's lives. But I think Isaiah 6 is probably the most profound.
Ezekiel describes it in
11:9
18:31
36:25-27
Although, I think I like 36:25-27 the best. I consider it the most perfect description of the new birth ever provided in such concise terms.

I further think that the only way to see the old testament references of the regeneration is to understand what the new birth is. God may not have used "born again", regeneration, or other new testament terms, but it's clear that everyone with whom God directly interacted in the old testament, they were in fact regenerated.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Regeneration existed in the Old Testament times as much as in the New. Regeneration, or being “born again,” did not exist sacramentally under the Law of Moses, because the Law of Moses was a law of carnal commandments, which God gave to the house of Israel at that time because of the “hardness of their hearts”. But the Old Testament is not confined to the Law of Moses. It included the period of time before Moses, which was not subject to the Law of Moses. Of Abraham for example Jesus said:

John 8:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.


If Abraham saw Jesus’ day, that would have included regeneration too. Again, quoting from the words of Jesus:

Luke 16:

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


If Abraham was already in the kingdom of God in heaven, he couldn’t have got there without being “regenerated” first:

John 3:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Abrahm not only saw the “kingdom of God in heaven,” in in Luke 16:22 he epitomises the “kingdom of God in heaven;” and he couldn’t have done that without having been regenerated first. As far as John 7:38–39 is concerned, that applies to the saints in Jesus’ own day. It does not mean that the saints prior to that time, such as Abraham for example, could not have received the Holy Ghost as well.
So you think regeneration existed , ceased to exist and existed again

a rather novel idea

which of course really does address all the issues raised in my post

there is nothing stating Old testaments could have not received the blessing of regeneration in their glorification at their entrance into the kingdom

Romans 8:28, 29 speaks of that glorification

There is no evidence however of an earthly regeneration experience in the old testament and it appears as a future promise to old testament saints here

Ezek. 36:24–28 —KJV
“For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.”

and all the NT data points to a reality that is only available in the NT
 
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