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TomFL
Guest
The spirit left Saul so did he become unregenerate ?
Eze 36:26 is a future prophesy fulfilled in NT times
In the old testament it was common for the spirit to on or in Kings and prophets but that appears to be for service
Regeneration - A NT Doctrine
- Thread starter JDS
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Eze 36:26 is a future prophesy fulfilled in NT times
In the old testament it was common for the spirit to on or in Kings and prophets but that appears to be for service
SteveB
Well-known member
I'm still working on Saul's failure to repent. But it's clear that God changed the man. Unless Samuel speaking by the Holy Spirit was wrong.
that doesn't mean it didn't apply when Ezekiel was told it by God.
Yes it was.
But to experience God, they needed to experience a regeneration.
I think the key here is one of the Holy Spirit inhabiting someone, versus coming upon them.
What we experience in regeneration with the Holy Spirit inhabiting us-- Ezekiel 36:27--- is uniquely post resurrection, and Pentecost.
I think this is why Abraham's bosom no longer exists, and we can now go to heaven, directly once we die. Sin was dealt with, once and for all.
Oh... I forgot about Joel 2.
In the last days, I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.
these are all OT passages, and therefore, OT concepts, which the NT clearly builds on.
zerinus
Well-known member
Not exactly, that is not what it means. In his mortality Jesus had humbled himself before the Father by taking on human flesh in order to redeem mankind from the Fall, and the reception of the Holy Ghost at that time had to await his glorification and resurrection. It does not mean that the gift had not been available to the saints prior to his incarnation.
That simply refers to the restoration of the house of Israel following their transgression, rejection, and chastisement in the latter days. It says nothing about regeneration not being available to the saints prior to Jesus’ incarnation.
Theo1689
Well-known member
So you're saying Jesus was mortal BEFORE becoming human?
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TomFL
Guest
Well as noted the Spirit left Saul
And as noting the Spirit anointed kings and prophets for service
I would tend to think otherwise
If the spirit was for an anointing for service there is no evidence for a personal indwelling
And Joel as you note was a prophesy for the last days
This is what the NT shows
Regeneration is through the gospel
James 1:18 (NASB)
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (NASB)
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Predicated on the Resurrection of Christ
Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12, 13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Concurrent with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV)
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
It is in Christ
1 John 5:12 (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
One must have faith in Christ to receive it
John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”
John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”
I think you have nailed this one very well. It would do some saints a lot of good to have their pastor (if he is knowledgeable) to teach on the relationship between OT holy anointing and the anointing of the NT saints with the Holy Spirit. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the "internet church".
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TomFL
Guest
Thank you
SteveB
Well-known member
Indeed.
Keep in mind that I never said that it wasn't a new testament issue.
I said it's described in the old testament with examples of people whose lives were changed.
I do agree that regeneration in the new testament is a unique experience.
The issue that Jesus brought up in John 4:24 was the same issue before.
God can only be worshipped in spirit and truth. Everyone, old and new testament are under the same issue.
Well, that at least explains why you do not know what I have said and whether I have made the case expressed in my op. I have made the case and none of these fellows have even attempted to refute it. Not that I desire them to because I would rather they believe the words, something they refuse to do. I am the preacher here. I am preaching that salvation is by the grace of God and through faith in what Jesus Christ has done for the world of sinners who cannot save themselves. He has taken away sin and propitiated God by his sacrifice of himself. Regeneration in the context of sinners in Titus 3 is a renewing to the trinitarian model by the washing away of sin and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. This is why no man can enter into the kingdom of God unless he has been born again. This is why the kingdom of God was "at hand" when Jesus Christ came to the earth. His kingdom will be established with all his subjects being born again and with the trinitarian nature. This is why it was not set up in it's glory when he first came because men refused to believe in him and the kingdom was established in it's temporary mystery form.
After his resurrection when it was possible for men to have their sins washed away and to be born of God by the Spirit. This is his command.
First to the Jews.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise (of the Spirit) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The operative phrase is in bold.
Following is what he expects when he returns to establish his kingdom. Called the restitution of all things. The operative sentence is in bold.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
This leaves nothing but born again Jews.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Here is what he said to gentiles.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
When he judges the world it will leave nothing but born again gentiles in it
Lk 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
he has a parable for unbelieving gentiles as well but I don't have room for it here.
This is the reason men must be born again to enter the kingdom. Only men in the image of God can live here because it is where God is.
You still don't get it. Just as circumcision has a physical aspect, as held by the Jews, so baptism has a physical aspect, as held by you, since you are using this verse to talk about regeneration. The in which points back to the physical baptism. Yes, it talks about the spiritual understanding...as it relates to the physical baptism. That is what you are not understanding. This verse is not the one to use for your argument, for then you are pushing baptismal regeneration. What we are saying is you need to find a different verse.
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TomFL
Guest
I do not believe we can say Saul was regenerate only to have lost that regeneration and the spirit as well
It creates a great many problems
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TomFL
Guest
I will say it one more time
The passage was not speaking of physical circumcision but spiritual
Therefore the baptism is likewise spiritual
Your problem is you cannot envision baptism without water
The bible speaks of other baptisms
SteveB
Well-known member
This is why I'm still working through it.
While I agree with John, in 1 John 2:19 that one who leaves was never one of us in the first place, the gospels do show us numerous people who followed Jesus, then got offended at his teachings, and split. The most popular of which is John 6. Then the parable of the sower show two people who stopped following Jesus. One due to their dislike for troubles associated with the gospel, and the other due to their being more interested in this life's affairs.
It raises the question of--- was there a different dynamic in the old testament than the new--- Jeremiah does tell us in Jer 31:31-34 that God changes the covenant.
Or, are we simply not understanding the dynamic between God and Saul?
As I consider this latter one, I'm considering the possibility that Saul's refusal to obey God's Word, regarding the Kingdom of Israel, is the cause of all his troubles, and woes. He wanted the power and the praise of men, but not the responsibility. We see many even today who are not able to handle the responsibilities, and the power/praise of men go to their heads. Televangelists being the most common.
Either way.... I'm still working through it. I'd be more than happy to hash it out together if you're so inclined. This will help more than just me.
Chalcedon
Well-known member
Also I do not think we can make the " exception" the rule or the standard.
David pleaded with God in the Psalm 51 not to take away His Holy Spirit from him and that never happened.
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TomFL
Guest
Well there are far more problem with the position that just Saul
An examination of the NT teaching on regeneration shows
Regeneration is through the gospel
James 1:18 (NASB)
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (NASB)
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Predicated on the Resurrection of Christ
Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12, 13 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Concurrent with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (KJV)
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Only in Christ
1 John 5:12 (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
available through faith in Christ
John 1:12 —KJV
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”
1 Pet. 1:18–25 —KJV
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Remember, David wasn't talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but the empowering of the Holy Spirit.
Chalcedon
Well-known member
really where does David say that ?
and Peter disagrees with you here:
1 Peter 1:11
inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories
hope this helps !!!
Where does the Bible say David was so stupid that he thought the unregenerate had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or that anyone had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost?
You need to read the whole passage. He's talking about prophets who prophesied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not unregenerate people who had the Holy Spirit before Christ sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers.
No, but I'm sure it made you feel better.