Regeneration is not the answer to the Calvinist catch 22

TomFL

Well-known member
Calvinists insist men cannot understand the gospel without some sort of intervention by God

Here I would like to discuss regeneration as a possible answer

and to declare regeneration cannot be the answer of the catch 22 conundrum that Calvinism engenders

For one cannot be regenerated without the gospel

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

a false misunderstood gospel cannot do it

It must be a true gospel and mixed with faith as well

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

r
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Calvinists insist men cannot understand the gospel without some sort of intervention by God



r
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Sounds like there needs to be an intervention.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Sounds like there needs to be an intervention.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Sounds like there needs to be an intervention.

......I'm not quite sure you can make that statement.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Sounds like there needs to be an intervention.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Sounds like there needs to be an intervention.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Sounds like there needs to be an intervention.

......I'm not quite sure you can make that statement.

Yeah, it's a sad thing that Tom simply refuses to believe Scripture.
 

civic

Well-known member
Why another thread on the same topic ?

What am I missing since there are lots of active responses in the other thread with catch 22, calvinists, etc ......

and making a claim doesn't negate what is or is not true. its a claim is all.

and since you are insinuating its a truth claim then you need proof which is lacking regarding all the assumptions being made with 1 cor 2:14.

I'm sorry to say but its a very weak argument. There are much better arguments one can make to oppose calvinism but these threads on this topic are not one of them.

The best argument against calvinism I will admit is the atonement/propitiation for sin and the whole world argument. But its easily dismantled by it being sufficient for all and efficient for some.

BTW- there are no I " gotcha " this time arguments as we have heard them all before.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Why another thread on the same topic ?

<sigh>

It's what he does... Waste CARM resources creating multiple threads for the same issue.
I guess he thinks when the discussion doesn't go his way, then starting the discussion afresh might change things.

"Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results." -- Einstein.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Tom...your killing your argument....you posted this verse:
Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

OK....you claim Calvinist believe God must intervene...you've tried to use scripture to deny that position.
So lets look at Heb 4:2...the verse you just posted.
The gospel was preached.
The word didn't profit them because they had no faith. OK...but lets look at faith and see if God has anything to do with it.

Eph 2 just so happens speaks of faith...8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Faith is a gift from God...it's what Eph 2 just said....Are you saying God didn't intervene in this instance and provide faith?
Could it be in Heb 2 God didn't intervene and give them faith?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

The “Spirit who is from God” is necessary in order to “understand the things freely given us by God”!

And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

Remember this verse does NOT say “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are” natural!

Why
?

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural man must be regenerated, made spiritual man first, in order to understand and believe the Gospel!

Now what are these "things of the Spirit of God" which people can't grasp without first being made spiritual alive/ regenerated first?

The context makes this very clear. Notice the word "folly" or "foolishness" in verse 14.
Whatever "the things of the Spirit of God" are, they are folly to the natural man. Chapter 1, verse 18 shows us what this is: "The word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved (by regeneration) it is the power of God."
The same thing in verses 23–24: "We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called (regenerated), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

In other words, what the natural man can't understand is the heart of the Christian message—the word of the cross - without first being regenerated!



Even Paul himself calls his message “folly”...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. - 1 Corinthians 1:21

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. - 1 Corinthians 2:2


Regeneration Necessarily Precedes Faith!
Regeneration Has A Specific Purpose in Salvation!
 

Sketo

Well-known member
<sigh>

It's what he does... Waste CARM resources creating multiple threads for the same issue.
I guess he thinks when the discussion doesn't go his way, then starting the discussion afresh might change things.

"Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results." -- Einstein.
Exactly!
I believe he is watching his ship of L.Flower-ism sink and desperately trying to patch the holes!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Tom...your killing your argument....you posted this verse:


OK....you claim Calvinist believe God must intervene...you've tried to use scripture to deny that position.
So lets look at Heb 4:2...the verse you just posted.
The gospel was preached.
The word didn't profit them because they had no faith. OK...but lets look at faith and see if God has anything to do with it.

Eph 2 just so happens speaks of faith...8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Faith is a gift from God...it's what Eph 2 just said....Are you saying God didn't intervene in this instance and provide faith?
Could it be in Heb 2 God didn't intervene and give them faith?

You have not shown how I am killing my argument

all you did was assume faith is the gift spoken of

and you did not deal with the issue at all which is the ability to understand thegospel

Calvinist state based on 1Co 2:14 man cannot understand the gospel unless first regenerated or given the spirit

That makes it impossible for anyone to ever understand the gospel because reception of the spirit and regeneration both depend on understanding the gospel
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Exactly!
I believe he is watching his ship of L.Flower-ism sink and desperately trying to patch the holes!
Fuinny but you have not addressed the argument

This is getting to be standard practice

multiple verses showing the gospel can be understood were given

including verses which that claim would contradict as well as others
which would make no sense if the gospel could not be understood

I show from context that those not wise in the wisdom of the world were being saved by the gospel

They obviously understood it

It was pointed out your appeal to regeneration is foreign to the context of 1Co

It was pointed out the impossibility of receiving the spirit or being regenerated if one can not understand the gospel

You addressed none of these

It is not my ship which is sinking

you claims are entirely gratuitous without any foundation at all
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Good question...
I sense Desperation!
Your imagination is running away with you

You cannot be regenerated if you do not understand the gospel

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


for regeneration depends on the gospel
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
You have not shown how I am killing my argument

all you did was assume faith is the gift spoken of

and you did not deal with the issue at all which is the ability to understand thegospel

Calvinist state based on 1Co 2:14 man cannot understand the gospel unless first regenerated or given the spirit

That makes it impossible for anyone to ever understand the gospel because reception of the spirit and regeneration both depend on understanding the gospel

People can easily undertand the gospel....Just as you can understand what the Muslims or Hindus proclaim.

But to accept the Gospel as truth....that's a bit different. I've presented you with several quotes from scripture where God intervened and the people got saved. Do you deny that?

Eph 2 also presents the following...5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Did you see it? Made us alive in Christ (REGENERATION) when we were dead. God intervened.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well, that is true. The Gospel is the good news. What is that good news? Jesus died on the cross as a substitutional atonement for our sins.

If Jesus didn't die there would be no regeneration.
And so how does one get to be regenerated or receive the spirit if he cannot understand the gospel

he can't

that is the point
 
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