Regeneration is not the answer to the Calvinist catch 22

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Wow...look at you dodging the question.

SHOW AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE IN THE BIBLE GETTING SAVED WITHOUT GOD INTERVENING....OR KINDLY RETRACT YOUR OPINION.

Just for the record...Eph 2:4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses.
Exactly. His Pelagian Humanistic "gospel" is found wanting. I pray God opens his eyes to his erroneous message.

Frankly it is a disgraceful message and is all about man.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Who is raised up

Eph. 2:5–8 —KJV
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
The believers Paul is writing to. Now when did Christ raise from the dead and was seated in heavenly places ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Exactly. His Pelagian Humanistic "gospel" is found wanting. I pray God opens his eyes to his erroneous message.

Frankly it is a disgraceful message and is all about man.
You are displaying ignorance

Pelagianism holds man was unaffected by the fall and in need of no grace to either be saved
or obey the law

I don't
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
No you did not

you just simply assumed the making alive was previous to faith

that is simply eisegesis
It how the bible presented it.

Here it is again.

Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Bumped forTomFL

SHOW AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE IN THE BIBLE GETTING SAVED WITHOUT GOD INTERVENING....OR KINDLY RETRACT YOUR OPINION.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
It how the bible presented it.

Here it is again.

Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Sorry that says nothing at about faith

so how can you draw any conclusion from the verse

worse you just skipped over

Col. 2:12 —KJV
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath
raised him from the dead.”

regeneration is a spiritual resurrection here it is through faith

faith precedes regeneration
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Sorry that says nothing at about faith

so how can you draw any conclusion from the verse

worse you just skipped over

Col. 2:12 —KJV
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath
raised him from the dead.”

regeneration is a spiritual resurrection here it is through faith

faith precedes regeneration
Have you risen yet?

.....What does "all men" mean?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Have you risen yet?

.....What does "all men" mean?
Risen refer to a spiritual resurrection' i.e. regeneration

Colossians 2:12–13 (KJV 1900)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

there is no reference to all men in this passage

Previously I posted this

w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43. Cf. Demosth. 18, 294 πάντες θεοί).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 631.

You will notice the presence of

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry that says nothing at about faith

so how can you draw any conclusion from the verse

worse you just skipped over

Col. 2:12 —KJV
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye aren the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell who hath
raised him from the dead.”

regeneration is a spiritual resurrection here it is through faith

faith precedes regeneration
Col 2 12 is speaking about regeneration, you avoided the rest of the verse" wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, "

Faith is the result of the Operation of God, which was through the resurrection of Christ from the dead. All this is about the Spirits Work. Paul essentially says the same thing in Eph 1 19-20


19 and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places

Col 2 12 has Faith being a result of the Spiritual Operation of God the Spirit ! Do you study these verses ?
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Risen refer to a spiritual resurrection' i.e. regeneration

Colossians 2:12–13 (KJV 1900)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

there is no reference to all men in this passage

Previously I posted this

w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43. Cf. Demosth. 18, 294 πάντες θεοί).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 631.

You will notice the presence of

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I didn't ask for a list of verses...just a simple definition. What does all men mean?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I didn't ask for a list of verses...just a simple definition. What does all men mean?
You asked two questions

You got the answer to 2 questions

1
Colossians 2:12–13 (KJV 1900)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

there is no reference to all men in this passage

Previously I posted this

2

w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43. Cf. Demosth. 18, 294 πάντες θεοί).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 631.

You will notice the presence of

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
You asked two questions

You got the answer to 2 questions

1
Colossians 2:12–13 (KJV 1900)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

there is no reference to all men in this passage

Previously I posted this

2

w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43. Cf. Demosth. 18, 294 πάντες θεοί).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 631.

You will notice the presence of

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I get it...you believe in universalism.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I get it...you believe in universalism.
Wrong you just assumed Helko refers to that which is irresistible despite the fact I provided verses showing it is not

and you should not misrepresent another's view


.....................................................

You got the answer to 2 questions

1
Colossians 2:12–13 (KJV 1900)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

there is no reference to all men in this passage

Previously I posted this

2

w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43. Cf. Demosth. 18, 294 πάντες θεοί).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 631.

You will notice the presence of

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Wrong you just assumed Helko refers to that which is irresistible despite the fact I provided verses showing it is not

and you should not misrepresent another's view


.....................................................

You got the answer to 2 questions

1
Colossians 2:12–13 (KJV 1900)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

there is no reference to all men in this passage

Previously I posted this

2

w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43. Cf. Demosth. 18, 294 πάντες θεοί).

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 631.

You will notice the presence of

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 2:11 (KJV 1900)
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I see...all people get saved.
 

JDS

Well-known member
I see...all people get saved.
I have a question for you CrowCross. We, or I, have been discussing Acts 13 on another thread and the statement is made by the apostle Paul that goes like this.

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Then, he says this:

26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Then this:

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

And this:

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And:

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Do you disagree with all that is said by the apostle Paul above and that Jesus was not a savior sent to them because they did not believe? That he was wrong about the forgiveness of sins to these people?

Is it your position, after reading the above, that Jesus Christ is only a savior to believers?

Question next. Would you try to convince us that you are right to believe that it was the will of God for these Jews to not believe in Jesus Christ in spite of the warning to them in the following verse?

40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Is Jesus really a savior of Israel, like Paul claims, or is he just a savior to those who believe?

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

How many of Israel could he have saved and how many would he have saved?
 
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