Regeneration through Faith in the gospel

brightfame52

Well-known member
Scripture still shows your error

Funny the bible says you must believe the gospel to be saved

and that you are begotten again through the gospel

James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

and to profit it must be believed

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and as a result one is born again

BTW
This is regeneration

John 7:38 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

effected by the Spirit indwelling

John 7:39 —KJV
“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

and is given through faith
That's because you must be saved to believe the Gospel. A lost person cannot believe it, it's hidden from them.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That's because you must be saved to believe the Gospel. A lost person cannot believe it, it's hidden from them.
Seriously ?

John 3:14–18 —KJV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

better forget your theology and heed God's word
 

zerinus

Active member
James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”
A better proof text that faith preceds regeneration is this:

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


The underlying assumption of that scripture is that man is accountable for his willingness to believe or not believe, which would only be possible if he had a choice in the matter. It would not be possible if he needed to be "regenerated" first before he could believe, over which he had no control. Here is another good proof text:

Luke 19:

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Matthew 23:

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!


Why is Jesus weeping and mourning over the unbelief and wickedness of the Jews if they had no control over their sins and unbelief, unless God had "regenerated" them first? The implication is that they had full control, and were fully responsible for their actions.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Seriously ?

John 3:14–18 —KJV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 3:36 —KJV
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

John 5:24 —KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

better forget your theology and heed God's word
Yes seriously. Believing the Gospel shows one to be in a saved state. Otherwise a lost unsaved person cannot believe the Gospel because it's hidden from them.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
A better proof text that faith preceds regeneration is this:

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


The underlying assumption of that scripture is that man is accountable for his willingness to believe or not believe, which would only be possible if he had a choice in the matter. It would not be possible if he needed to be "regenerated" first before he could believe, over which he had no control. Here is another good proof text:

Luke 19:

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Matthew 23:

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!


Why is Jesus weeping and mourning over the unbelief and wickedness of the Jews if they had no control over their sins and unbelief, unless God had "regenerated" them first? The implication is that they had full control, and were fully responsible for their actions.
These speak of being born again

James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

It is through the gospel

and it must be faith in the gospel because without faith it is profitless

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and as a result one is born again

BTW
This is regeneration - being born again

John 7:38 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

It is effected by the Spirit indwelling

John 7:39 —KJV
“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

and is given through faith
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Zerinus

A better proof text that faith preceds regeneration is this:

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That's negative. The one who believes and is baptized shows themselves to have been in a saved state. He that believes not shall be damned meaning they don't believe because they are in a damned state.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
These speak of being born again

James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

It is through the gospel

and it must be faith in the gospel because without faith it is profitless

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and as a result one is born again

BTW
This is regeneration - being born again

John 7:38 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

It is effected by the Spirit indwelling

John 7:39 —KJV
“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

and is given through faith
You have to be saved or born again to believe, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. Does not matter how many verses you compile it is not changing the facts. It only shows me you have not studied not one of them.
 

zerinus

Active member
These speak of being born again

James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

It is through the gospel

and it must be faith in the gospel because without faith it is profitless

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and as a result one is born again

BTW
This is regeneration - being born again

John 7:38 —KJV8
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

It is effected by the Spirit indwelling

John 7:39 —KJV
“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

and is given through faith
All of these verses can be misconstrued by Calvinists and theologians of the Reformed camp to mean that regeneration precedes faith. They are not explicit enough in expressing the opposite view to defeat them. I think that the verses I had quoted are more explicit in defeating their theology than your ones.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You have to be saved or born again to believe, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. Does not matter how many verses you compile it is not changing the facts. It only shows me you have not studied not one of them.
You just ignored every verse showing one is not born again until one has faith

These speak of being born again

James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

It is through the gospel

and it must be faith in the gospel because without faith it is profitless

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and as a result one is born again

BTW
This is regeneration - being born again

John 7:38 —KJV8
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

It is effected by the Spirit indwelling

John 7:39 —KJV
“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

and is given through faith
 

TomFL

Well-known member
All of these verses can be misconstrued by Calvinists and theologians of the Reformed camp to mean that regeneration precedes faith. They are not explicit enough in expressing the opposite view to defeat them. I think that the verses I had quoted are more explicit in defeating their theology than your ones.
Not if one actually reads what the verses state

But if you feel you a need to pat yourself on the back feel free
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes seriously. Believing the Gospel shows one to be in a saved state. Otherwise a lost unsaved person cannot believe the Gospel because it's hidden from them.
Sorry but the bible never states

Believing the Gospel shows one to be in a saved state.

That is your theology

Acts 16:31 —ESV
“And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Mark 16:16 —ESV
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

John 3:14–15 —ESV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”

In each case salvation flows from believing

In any case your argument makes no sense if the the gospel is hidden from those who are lost and all men are/were in a lost state no one would ever believe the gospel

And not only that the gospel is hidden because the god of this world has blinded their eyes and as a result you make him/it more powerful than the gospel and Christ

John 1:6–9 —KJV
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

Notice

Gospel -----AND----------> Faith ----------Results in-------------> Salvation
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You just ignored every verse showing one is not born again until one has faith

These speak of being born again

James 1:18 —KJV
“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

1 Pet. 1:23 —KJV
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

It is through the gospel

and it must be faith in the gospel because without faith it is profitless

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

and as a result one is born again

BTW
This is regeneration - being born again

John 7:38 —KJV8
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.”

It is effected by the Spirit indwelling

John 7:39 —KJV
“(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

and is given through faith
The verses are fine but not one of them teach what you say because newbirth is before faith and faith That a fruit of the Spirit.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry but the bible never states



That is your theology

Acts 16:31 —ESV
“And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Mark 16:16 —ESV
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

John 3:14–15 —ESV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”

In each case salvation flows from believing

In any case your argument makes no sense if the the gospel is hidden from those who are lost and all men are/were in a lost state no one would ever believe the gospel

And not only that the gospel is hidden because the god of this world has blinded their eyes and as a result you make him/it more powerful than the gospel and Christ

John 1:6–9 —KJV
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Rom. 1:16 —KJV
“¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

Notice

Gospel -----AND----------> Faith ----------Results in-------------> Salvation
That's the truth. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22 s
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That's the truth. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22 s
Nope that's just your theology

No Spirit ? then no fruit

No faith ? then no Spirit

John 7:38–39 —ESV
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Faith is required before receiving the Spirit and his fruit

making your claim illogical

Your problem is one of interpretation as shown by many commentators even Calvinist commentators

Faith. πιστις, here used for fidelity — punctuality in performing promises, conscientious carefulness in preserving what is committed to our trust, in restoring it to its proper owner, in transacting the business confided to us, neither betraying the secret of our friend, nor disappointing the confidence of our employer.
Adam Clarke Commentary

“The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man—a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.
(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 22614.)

Faith means truth, and is contrasted with cunning, deceit, and falsehood, as peace is with quarrels and contentions.
Calvin's commentary

faith — “faithfulness”; opposed to “heresies” [BENGEL]. ALFORD refers to 1 Corinthians 13:7, “Believeth all things”: faith in the widest sense, toward God and man. “Trustfulness” [CONYBEARE and HOWSON].
JFB commentary
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nope that's just your theology

No Spirit ? then no fruit

No faith ? then no Spirit

John 7:38–39 —ESV
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Faith is required before receiving the Spirit and his fruit

making your claim illogical

Your problem is one of interpretation as shown by many commentators even Calvinist commentators

Faith. πιστις, here used for fidelity — punctuality in performing promises, conscientious carefulness in preserving what is committed to our trust, in restoring it to its proper owner, in transacting the business confided to us, neither betraying the secret of our friend, nor disappointing the confidence of our employer.
Adam Clarke Commentary

“The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man—a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.
(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 22614.)

Faith means truth, and is contrasted with cunning, deceit, and falsehood, as peace is with quarrels and contentions.
Calvin's commentary

faith — “faithfulness”; opposed to “heresies” [BENGEL]. ALFORD refers to 1 Corinthians 13:7, “Believeth all things”: faith in the widest sense, toward God and man. “Trustfulness” [CONYBEARE and HOWSON].
JFB commentary
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. That's Gal 5:22
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
Does not make sense. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. The Spiritual Man has faith to receive and understand the things of God. The Gospel is Spiritual

I see you're just going to parrot that verse over and over again. I've given a clear explanation of it while you refuse to deal with any other verses mentioned.

To answer my own question. A "Spiritual man" doesn't need faith if it is gift to him like you say it is.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I see you're just going to parrot that verse over and over again. I've given a clear explanation of it while you refuse to deal with any other verses mentioned.

To answer my own question. A "Spiritual man" doesn't need faith if it is gift to him like you say it is.
Truth doesn't change. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit anyway you slice it.
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
Truth doesn't change. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit anyway you slice it.

Nope. Not the faith that brings Salvation. It is product of believing and then acceptance from the natural man.

Tell me. Can faith be misplaced?

If faith can be misplaced then it is not perfect. Everything that comes from the Spirit is perfect.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. That's Gal 5:22
You just ignored all that was written

No Spirit ? then no fruit

No faith ? then no Spirit

John 7:38–39 —ESV
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.”

Faith is required before receiving the Spirit and his fruit

making your claim illogical

Your problem is one of interpretation as shown by many commentators even Calvinist commentators

Faith. πιστις, here used for fidelity — punctuality in performing promises, conscientious carefulness in preserving what is committed to our trust, in restoring it to its proper owner, in transacting the business confided to us, neither betraying the secret of our friend, nor disappointing the confidence of our employer.
Adam Clarke Commentary

“The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man—a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. It is probable that the word is used in this sense because the object of the apostle is not to speak of the feelings which we have towards God, so much as to illustrate the influences of the Spirit in directing and controlling our feelings towards men. True religion makes a man faithful. The Christian is faithful as a man; faithful as a neighbour, friend, father, husband, son. He is faithful to his contracts; faithful to his promises. No man can be a Christian who is not thus faithful; and all pretensions to being under the influences of the Spirit, when such fidelity does not exist, are deceitful and vain.
(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 22614.)

Faith means truth, and is contrasted with cunning, deceit, and falsehood, as peace is with quarrels and contentions.
Calvin's commentary

faith — “faithfulness”; opposed to “heresies” [BENGEL]. ALFORD refers to 1 Corinthians 13:7, “Believeth all things”: faith in the widest sense, toward God and man. “Trustfulness” [CONYBEARE and HOWSON].
JFB commentary
 
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