Reincarnation

SteveB

Well-known member
You can read the upanishads. See we are all God (Brahman) and we are playing that we are not.
Yeah, that's what the serpent said in the garden to Eve.

That's also what the Caesars claimed, and what the mormons claim.

The last thing I want is to be god.
But, if you actually want it, be my guest.
Let me know how it works out for you.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No, you made that claim. You claimed that YHWH created everything that exists. Since YHWH exists, then He in included in "everything that exists". Hence either YHWH created Himself (which is ridiculous) or else your claim is incorrect. He created "almost everything that exists," not everything. He did not create Himself.

As I said, this is a common error.
Yes. He did.
He existed prior to all creation.

So, while you keep tripping over your lack of understanding, trying to make it possible for you to be right, let the infinitely existence of YHVH fill your heart with the awe he is due.

He's always been.
Is
And always will be.

So, how large a number are you able to fathom?

He was before that number.

I can provide you with numbers if you're not able to pick one.
 

Faithoverbelief

Well-known member
Yeah, that's what the serpent said in the garden to Eve.

That's also what the Caesars claimed, and what the mormons claim.

The last thing I want is to be god.
But, if you actually want it, be my guest.
Let me know how it works out for you.
It's really easy just let go of your ego. Jesus did it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It's really easy just let go of your ego. Jesus did it.
Actually, he's not given up his ego.

He set aside his deity, to take on the form of a servant and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.

A pure ego, uncorrupted by sin is beyond what we call ego.
Knowing who he was and having confidence in God gave him the confidence that allowed him to set who he was aside to accomplish our salvation from our sin.

So, no. Jesus did not give up his ego.

Phi 2:5-11 WEB 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​
The next part is

Heb 12:2 WEB looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The reason I said he didn't give up his ego is this passage.

He looked forward beyond the cross and to the joy of saving the human race from our sin and destruction.
 
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Hypatia_Alexandria

Well-known member
The Roman prefect found no fault in him. The Jews insisted, so he finally washed his hands of the matter
That is nothing but early Christian PR and a theological embellishment. However, bravo for repeating the old lie that the Jews killed the Christ. We all know where that road eventually lead don't we?
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Well-known member
He was charged and sentenced to death for Blasphemy, him being a man making himself equal to God.

You seem to be quite uninformed
You certainly are very uninformed.

The Romans took no interest in Jewish religious affairs. However, arriving in Jerusalem during a Jewish festival, at the head of a crowd of followers, and being proclaimed by some of them as the Messiah [a claim which carried a capital sentence] was an entirely different matter.

Just for information: Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty; and no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy.
 

rossum

Well-known member
You certainly are very uninformed.

The Romans took no interest in Jewish religious affairs. However, arriving in Jerusalem during a Jewish festival, at the head of a crowd of followers, and being proclaimed by some of them as the Messiah [a claim which carried a capital sentence] was an entirely different matter.

Just for information: Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty; and no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy.
It is also worth pointing out that crucifixion was a specifically Roman, not Jewish, punishment. Only the Roman governor could impose it, not the local Jewish authorities. There had to be an offence against Roman law to be crucified.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
It is also worth pointing out that crucifixion was a specifically Roman, not Jewish, punishment. Only the Roman governor could impose it, not the local Jewish authorities. There had to be an offence against Roman law to be crucified.
True.

When one read the amount presented by John they tried to have Jesus killed because of heresy....that didn't work so the moved the goal post and made Jesus out to be a threat to the king.
 

rossum

Well-known member
When one read the amount presented by John they tried to have Jesus killed because of heresy....that didn't work so the moved the goal post and made Jesus out to be a threat to the king.
King? Rome had an Emperor, Augustus, not a king. Rome hadn't had a king for a long time: Tarquinius Superbus, who was deposed in 509BCE.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
That is nothing but early Christian PR and a theological embellishment. However, bravo for repeating the old lie that the Jews killed the Christ. We all know where that road eventually lead don't we?
The old lie?
Do you presume me to be antisemitic?
Embellishment for PR?

What do you think those early Christians wished to obtain? Money, fame, power.....
They were severely persecuted yet preservered, so your PR claim is quite absurd.

As to my claim that the Jewish High Priest had him executed please prove the contrary....
1 Nan with 72 followers were a serious threat to mighty Rome and had caused insurrection by healing the sick and preaching a message of love and forgiveness..... yea right.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You certainly are very uninformed.

The Romans took no interest in Jewish religious affairs. However, arriving in Jerusalem during a Jewish festival, at the head of a crowd of followers, and being proclaimed by some of them as the Messiah [a claim which carried a capital sentence] was an entirely different matter.

Just for information: Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty; and no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy.
So now you agree that the Jewish High priest did have Him executed by the Romans............
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Well-known member
So now you agree that the Jewish High priest did have Him executed by the Romans............
You really haven't got a clue have you? The Jews had no authority to order capital crimes. Nor was a Roman Praefectus overly interested in the minutiae of Jewish theology.

However, a Jew claiming to be [or being acclaimed as] the Messiah [which offence carried a capital punishment] was a political crime and as such came under the jurisdiction of the Praefectus. The Jewish Messiah is not a god. The Jewish Messiah is a man, chosen by god.

The Jewish Messiah would establish a theocracy in Israel and to do that, the Romans had to be removed. How that would be achieved is conjecture. Did Jesus imagine that the Almighty would produce a miracle for him? The Hebrew texts had many such stories to support that belief. Did Jesus plan a somewhat more direct attempt to overthrow the Roman authorities? In Luke 22.36 he gives explicit instructions and clearly from that text some already had weapons.

We do not know.

What we do know is that later [post 70 CE] Christian texts portray Jesus as pacific and shift the onus for his execution from the Romans/Rome and on to the Jews.
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Well-known member
The old lie?
The old lie that the Jews killed the Christ lies at the root of Christian anti-Semitism. Why do you imagine your religion persecuted the Jewish people for upward of 1700 years?

.....
They were severely persecuted yet preservered,

That traditional "history" of Christian martyrdom is mistaken. Christians were not routinely persecuted, hounded or targeted by the Roman authorities. Very few Christians died, and when they did so they were often executed for what today, might be considered political reasons. It should be noted that there is a distinct difference between persecution and proscription.

As to my claim that the Jewish High Priest had him executed please prove the contrary....
1 Nan with 72 followers were a serious threat to mighty Rome and had caused insurrection by healing the sick and preaching a message of love and forgiveness..... yea right.
Again, you need to familiarise yourself with the recent history of this region and how Rome governed the province. Although practically ignored in the gospel accounts, Judaea was, in fact, an area seething with discontent and insurrection and from the late first century BCE and early first century CE there were several mass movements of Jewish peasants who came from villages or towns and who rallied to the leadership of charismatic figures who were viewed as “anointed kings of the Jews” i.e. Messiahs.

Nor were some of those Messianic movements of previous years easily subdued. At least one, led by Athronges, a shepherd, took quite some time for either the Roman or Herodian troops to eventually suppress it.

Then in 6 CE the area witnessed the serious uprising of Judas of Galilee which again was savagely put down resulting in thousands of crucifixions (see Josephus Jewish War II:5:2]. Judas established the fourth branch of Jewish philosophy, the Zealots and his son Menachem, who was another Messianic claimant, would go on to lead the initial revolt against Rome in 66 CE.

Despite his crucifixion by the Romans for sedition and insurrection, those later [post 70 CE] Christian apologists removed Jesus' from the orbit of the recently rebellious Jews. Jesus is portrayed in all four gospel passion narratives as entirely pacific and Rome [in the figure of Pilate] is portrayed sympathetically. It is Rome/Pilate who desperately wants to release this man. It is the Jews who demand Jesus' death and so Rome/Pilate is the weak and helpless accessory forced by the Jews to comply with their bloodlust and give them Jesus. Indeed in the gospel of John it is the Jews who carry out the crucifixion.
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Well-known member
It is also worth pointing out that crucifixion was a specifically Roman, not Jewish, punishment. Only the Roman governor could impose it, not the local Jewish authorities. There had to be an offence against Roman law to be crucified.
Certainly for a provincial humiliores like Jesus. I also think some of our friends need to remember that in Roman Judaea the imposition of this cruel form of capital punishment was both ruthless and commonplace. One sometimes gets the impression they consider this to be the only occasion when some Jews were crucified.

Which reminds me of an old Jewish joke.

An elderly Jew is in a Catholic hospital and requests that the crucifix in his room be removed. The nurse asks him why and the old gentleman replies "One suffering Jew in here is enough". ;)
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You really haven't got a clue have you? The Jews had no authority to order capital crimes. Nor was a Roman Praefectus overly interested in the minutiae of Jewish theology.

Oh, were you there? How do you know that Pontuis Pilate was not heeding the Jewish Sanhedrin on this matter.
Sources much closer to the time refute your silly assumptions.

However, a Jew claiming to be [or being acclaimed as] the Messiah [which offence carried a capital punishment] was a political crime and as such came under the jurisdiction of the Praefectus. The Jewish Messiah is not a god. The Jewish Messiah is a man, chosen by god.
So why do you think these guys wanted Jesus killed. Exactly for that Him a man claiming to be one with God. So they ran to the Romans. Pilate washed his hands, for he could find no guilt in Jesus, and obviously put a sign up to justify his giving in to the Jews.

Not that difficult to understand you know.

The Jewish Messiah would establish a theocracy in Israel and to do that, the Romans had to be removed. How that would be achieved is conjecture.

Absolutely. That is what the Jewish people even today expected. Not what Jesus expected though. It was confirmed at His babtism that He was the Messiah, and he confirmed Himself that he would be raised from the dead by referencing Johnah and that He would raise Himself using the Temple as metahor.
Es ist nicht gut, jemanden ahnungslos anzurufen, wenn Sie nichts über ihn wissen

Did Jesus imagine that the Almighty would produce a miracle for him? The Hebrew texts had many such stories to support that belief. Did Jesus plan a somewhat more direct attempt to overthrow the Roman authorities? In Luke 22.36 he gives explicit instructions and clearly from that text some already had weapons.
Terrible eisegesis of the text.
He prayed for hours to let the cup pass him. Whem the ear of a servant was cut off, He replaced it and healed the man.... we do know

We do not know.

What we do know is that later [post 70 CE] Christian texts portray Jesus as pacific and shift the onus for his execution from the Romans/Rome and on to the Jews.
You obviously have not properly read why the Jewish Sanhedrin wanted Him killed and as it was Passover, why they lay false charges against him before Rome.

Ich denke, Sie müssen sich etwas mehr Zeit nehmen, um die Bibel richtig zu studieren, bevor Sie glauben, ein Experte zu sein
 
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