Reincarnation

Manfred

Active member
He was not directly threatening the religious hierarchy. Claiming, or being acclaimed as the Jewish Messiah was a capital crime. He was executed for sedition and insurrection by the Roman Praefectus within a Roman province.
The Roman prefect found no fault in him. The Jews insisted, so he finally washed his hands of the matter
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Interesting. This then is how atheists have morals. So no need for any gods.
We who follow Jesus have no gods either.
We believe only in YHVH, who is the Creator of everything that exists.
And as it's written, in him, we live, move and have our being.
So, point in fact, you actually do need him, as he holds your life in his hands, and can stop your breath and heartbeat at any moment.

The difference is that he actually seeks for your good. Your eternal good.

The Law, aka biblical morals, was given, not to keep us from enjoying life. but from destroying ourselves. I.e., operator's manual. Equipments specifications.

Furthermore, your morals are dependent entirely on you.
It's been noted throughout history that when such morals become inconvenient, they get changed. Eg, in the 1800's, some people's morals allowed them to justify slavery. While the morals of other people said slavery was wrong. Yet, so convinced of the former people of their "high moral standard" they went to war to "protect their right to own human beings as property."
The war resulted in the deaths of over 600,000 people here in the US. Many of whom gave their lives to free those people who were treated as property.

In world war 2, the "morals" of the German government "convinced" them, of their "high moral standard", they went to war to to "protect their right to slaughter human beings" who did not fit their views of what a human being should be.
that "high moral standard" resulted in the cruel, and heinous slaughter of approx. six million Jewish people, and the balance of the other approx. six million were people who were disabled, homosexual, gypsies, and Christians who fought to save those who were being slaughtered.

Subsequent wars, military, and cultural, have been, and are being fought over the constantly changing social morals, to fit the beliefs of those who seek the change. Muslims, specifically the more radical, "true believers" of the Quran, view Christians, and Jewish people are the problem, and that we should be removed from society.

So..... by all means, when I read your comment, I find myself thinking--- you apparently missed that part of history's lessons!


Thankfully, genuine biblical morality is consistent, and unchanging. Not dependent on the whims of those who agree, disagree, prefer otherwise, etc.....

Furthermore, they are not manmade. God's Law, is eternal, and will stand beyond the end of the cosmos. So, if you think the cosmos will last another 15 billion years, God's Law will be here long beyond that.
 

rossum

Active member
We believe only in YHVH, who is the Creator of everything that exists.
Elementary logical error there. You have lost those of us who expect logical consistency:
  • YHWH exists.
  • YHWH did not create Himself.
  • Therefore YHWH did not create everything that exists.
QED.

Don't worry, you are not the first to make this mistake. The original error is in the stock phrase: "God created everything." Perhaps a little more thought before posting up a stock phrase in future?

Thankfully, genuine biblical morality is consistent, and unchanging.
Unfortunately us mere humans have no access to "genuine biblical morality". All we have access to is "current human interpretations of biblical morality". Above you gave the example of slavery, which many Christians truly believed was "genuine biblical morality". Christians used to kill witches, again believing it was "genuine biblical morality". Christianity is not consistent -- how many different denominations are there? And Christianity is not unchanging. You are proposing an unattainable target here.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Elementary logical error there. You have lost those of us who expect logical consistency:
  • YHWH exists.
  • YHWH did not create Himself.
  • Therefore YHWH did not create everything that exists.
QED.

Don't worry, you are not the first to make this mistake. The original error is in the stock phrase: "God created everything." Perhaps a little more thought before posting up a stock phrase in future?


Unfortunately us mere humans have no access to "genuine biblical morality". All we have access to is "current human interpretations of biblical morality". Above you gave the example of slavery, which many Christians truly believed was "genuine biblical morality". Christians used to kill witches, again believing it was "genuine biblical morality". Christianity is not consistent -- how many different denominations are there? And Christianity is not unchanging. You are proposing an unattainable target here.
I'm not the one who claims that YHVH needed to create himself to exist.
It strikes me as logically inconsistent for a self-determining being to create himself, in order to exist, and then be discounted because he's always existed, yet created, and indeed sustains all that exists.
I have a novel idea though..... when you've existed for all eternity, and figure out how you can create yourself, you let us know.
 

Faithoverbelief

Active member
I'm not the one who claims that YHVH needed to create himself to exist.
It strikes me as logically inconsistent for a self-determining being to create himself, in order to exist, and then be discounted because he's always existed, yet created, and indeed sustains all that exists.
I have a novel idea though..... when you've existed for all eternity, and figure out how you can create yourself, you let us know.
You can read the upanishads. See we are all God (Brahman) and we are playing that we are not.
 

rossum

Active member
I'm not the one who claims that YHVH needed to create himself to exist.
No, you made that claim. You claimed that YHWH created everything that exists. Since YHWH exists, then He in included in "everything that exists". Hence either YHWH created Himself (which is ridiculous) or else your claim is incorrect. He created "almost everything that exists," not everything. He did not create Himself.

As I said, this is a common error.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You can read the upanishads. See we are all God (Brahman) and we are playing that we are not.
Yeah, that's what the serpent said in the garden to Eve.

That's also what the Caesars claimed, and what the mormons claim.

The last thing I want is to be god.
But, if you actually want it, be my guest.
Let me know how it works out for you.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No, you made that claim. You claimed that YHWH created everything that exists. Since YHWH exists, then He in included in "everything that exists". Hence either YHWH created Himself (which is ridiculous) or else your claim is incorrect. He created "almost everything that exists," not everything. He did not create Himself.

As I said, this is a common error.
Yes. He did.
He existed prior to all creation.

So, while you keep tripping over your lack of understanding, trying to make it possible for you to be right, let the infinitely existence of YHVH fill your heart with the awe he is due.

He's always been.
Is
And always will be.

So, how large a number are you able to fathom?

He was before that number.

I can provide you with numbers if you're not able to pick one.
 

Faithoverbelief

Active member
Yeah, that's what the serpent said in the garden to Eve.

That's also what the Caesars claimed, and what the mormons claim.

The last thing I want is to be god.
But, if you actually want it, be my guest.
Let me know how it works out for you.
It's really easy just let go of your ego. Jesus did it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It's really easy just let go of your ego. Jesus did it.
Actually, he's not given up his ego.

He set aside his deity, to take on the form of a servant and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.

A pure ego, uncorrupted by sin is beyond what we call ego.
Knowing who he was and having confidence in God gave him the confidence that allowed him to set who he was aside to accomplish our salvation from our sin.

So, no. Jesus did not give up his ego.

Phi 2:5-11 WEB 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​
The next part is

Heb 12:2 WEB looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The reason I said he didn't give up his ego is this passage.

He looked forward beyond the cross and to the joy of saving the human race from our sin and destruction.
 
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Hypatia_Alexandria

Active member
The Roman prefect found no fault in him. The Jews insisted, so he finally washed his hands of the matter
That is nothing but early Christian PR and a theological embellishment. However, bravo for repeating the old lie that the Jews killed the Christ. We all know where that road eventually lead don't we?
 

Hypatia_Alexandria

Active member
He was charged and sentenced to death for Blasphemy, him being a man making himself equal to God.

You seem to be quite uninformed
You certainly are very uninformed.

The Romans took no interest in Jewish religious affairs. However, arriving in Jerusalem during a Jewish festival, at the head of a crowd of followers, and being proclaimed by some of them as the Messiah [a claim which carried a capital sentence] was an entirely different matter.

Just for information: Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty; and no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy.
 

rossum

Active member
You certainly are very uninformed.

The Romans took no interest in Jewish religious affairs. However, arriving in Jerusalem during a Jewish festival, at the head of a crowd of followers, and being proclaimed by some of them as the Messiah [a claim which carried a capital sentence] was an entirely different matter.

Just for information: Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty; and no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy.
It is also worth pointing out that crucifixion was a specifically Roman, not Jewish, punishment. Only the Roman governor could impose it, not the local Jewish authorities. There had to be an offence against Roman law to be crucified.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
It is also worth pointing out that crucifixion was a specifically Roman, not Jewish, punishment. Only the Roman governor could impose it, not the local Jewish authorities. There had to be an offence against Roman law to be crucified.
True.

When one read the amount presented by John they tried to have Jesus killed because of heresy....that didn't work so the moved the goal post and made Jesus out to be a threat to the king.
 

rossum

Active member
When one read the amount presented by John they tried to have Jesus killed because of heresy....that didn't work so the moved the goal post and made Jesus out to be a threat to the king.
King? Rome had an Emperor, Augustus, not a king. Rome hadn't had a king for a long time: Tarquinius Superbus, who was deposed in 509BCE.
 
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