Which is why the Romans mocked him as the false "King of the Jews" when they executed him for sedition.Long sigh....emperor...king
John 19:15
Which is why the Romans mocked him as the false "King of the Jews" when they executed him for sedition.Long sigh....emperor...king
John 19:15
The old lie?That is nothing but early Christian PR and a theological embellishment. However, bravo for repeating the old lie that the Jews killed the Christ. We all know where that road eventually lead don't we?
So now you agree that the Jewish High priest did have Him executed by the Romans............You certainly are very uninformed.
The Romans took no interest in Jewish religious affairs. However, arriving in Jerusalem during a Jewish festival, at the head of a crowd of followers, and being proclaimed by some of them as the Messiah [a claim which carried a capital sentence] was an entirely different matter.
Just for information: Rabbinic literature lays down that the utterance of the sacrosanct Tetragram was an absolute requisite for someone to be charged with blasphemy: “The blasphemer is not guilty unless he pronounces the Name” [Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:5]. Reviling a substitute name was disapproved of, but did not carry the death penalty; and no Jewish law of any age suggests that a Messianic claim amounted to the crime of blasphemy.
You really haven't got a clue have you? The Jews had no authority to order capital crimes. Nor was a Roman Praefectus overly interested in the minutiae of Jewish theology.So now you agree that the Jewish High priest did have Him executed by the Romans............
The old lie that the Jews killed the Christ lies at the root of Christian anti-Semitism. Why do you imagine your religion persecuted the Jewish people for upward of 1700 years?The old lie?
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They were severely persecuted yet preservered,
Again, you need to familiarise yourself with the recent history of this region and how Rome governed the province. Although practically ignored in the gospel accounts, Judaea was, in fact, an area seething with discontent and insurrection and from the late first century BCE and early first century CE there were several mass movements of Jewish peasants who came from villages or towns and who rallied to the leadership of charismatic figures who were viewed as “anointed kings of the Jews” i.e. Messiahs.As to my claim that the Jewish High Priest had him executed please prove the contrary....
1 Nan with 72 followers were a serious threat to mighty Rome and had caused insurrection by healing the sick and preaching a message of love and forgiveness..... yea right.
Certainly for a provincial humiliores like Jesus. I also think some of our friends need to remember that in Roman Judaea the imposition of this cruel form of capital punishment was both ruthless and commonplace. One sometimes gets the impression they consider this to be the only occasion when some Jews were crucified.It is also worth pointing out that crucifixion was a specifically Roman, not Jewish, punishment. Only the Roman governor could impose it, not the local Jewish authorities. There had to be an offence against Roman law to be crucified.
You really haven't got a clue have you? The Jews had no authority to order capital crimes. Nor was a Roman Praefectus overly interested in the minutiae of Jewish theology.
So why do you think these guys wanted Jesus killed. Exactly for that Him a man claiming to be one with God. So they ran to the Romans. Pilate washed his hands, for he could find no guilt in Jesus, and obviously put a sign up to justify his giving in to the Jews.However, a Jew claiming to be [or being acclaimed as] the Messiah [which offence carried a capital punishment] was a political crime and as such came under the jurisdiction of the Praefectus. The Jewish Messiah is not a god. The Jewish Messiah is a man, chosen by god.
The Jewish Messiah would establish a theocracy in Israel and to do that, the Romans had to be removed. How that would be achieved is conjecture.
Terrible eisegesis of the text.Did Jesus imagine that the Almighty would produce a miracle for him? The Hebrew texts had many such stories to support that belief. Did Jesus plan a somewhat more direct attempt to overthrow the Roman authorities? In Luke 22.36 he gives explicit instructions and clearly from that text some already had weapons.
You obviously have not properly read why the Jewish Sanhedrin wanted Him killed and as it was Passover, why they lay false charges against him before Rome.We do not know.
What we do know is that later [post 70 CE] Christian texts portray Jesus as pacific and shift the onus for his execution from the Romans/Rome and on to the Jews.
You cannot use the four canonical gospels to prove the veracity of the four canonical gospels. That is circular logic.Oh, were you there? How do you know that Pontuis Pilate was not heeding the Jewish Sanhedrin on this matter.
Sources much closer to the time refute your silly assumptions.
Those accounts are later Christian apologetics. Do you have any comprehension concerning the impact of 70 CE on the fledgling Christian communities? Here was a cult [not a religion by Rome's definition] that worshipped a recently crucified Jew who had also threatened insurrection. Christians were already viewed with some suspicion by their neighbours. Clandestine meetings were frowned on in Rome. And as with any secret cult/sect/society local gossip supplied lurid accounts of what they actually got up to.So why do you think these guys wanted Jesus killed. Exactly for that Him a man claiming to be one with God. So they ran to the Romans. Pilate washed his hands, for he could find no guilt in Jesus, and obviously put a sign up to justify his giving in to the Jews.
Not that difficult to understand you know.
That is all your preconceived opinion and nothing more.Absolutely. That is what the Jewish people even today expected. Not what Jesus expected though. It was confirmed at His babtism that He was the Messiah, and he confirmed Himself that he would be raised from the dead by referencing Johnah and that He would raise Himself using the Temple as metahor.
The only reason the Sanhedrin might have wanted this man removed is that he threatened the status quo. However, that is a debatable point.You obviously have not properly read why the Jewish Sanhedrin wanted Him killed and as it was Passover, why they lay false charges against him before Rome.
And you think they had an SOP and every case was not judged by its merit.You cannot use the four canonical gospels to prove the veracity of the four canonical gospels. That is circular logic.
We have others sources that tell us how Rome governed its provinces in the early years of the empire
What dribbleThose accounts are later Christian apologetics. Do you have any comprehension concerning the impact of 70 CE on the fledgling Christian communities? Here was a cult [not a religion by Rome's definition] that worshipped a recently crucified Jew who had also threatened insurrection. Christians were already viewed with some suspicion by their neighbours. Clandestine meetings were frowned on in Rome. And as with any secret cult/sect/society local gossip supplied lurid accounts of what they actually got up to.
His teaching didThe only reason the Sanhedrin might have wanted this man removed is that he threatened the status quo. However, that is a debatable point.
When ever 4 different people view an event or when they ask different witnesses who were there to recount what happened, you think it would be identical? That would be the height of vanity.I would also point out that the four gospel accounts differ as to when the interrogation took place. Was it on the eve of Passover or afterwards? The writer of John says one. The writers of the Synoptics say the other.
Du liegst absolut richtig. Vielleicht müssen Sie Ihren eigenen Rat befolgen.Wenn jemand Unsinn schreibt, gehe ich davon aus, dass er die historische Realität nicht versteht.
In order to establish the kingdom of god in Israel - i.e. a theocracy - entailed the removal of Rome in that region.And you think they had an SOP and every case was not judged by its merit.
Pilate must have been an idiot to think Jesus was a threat to Rome.
What severe persecution in the late first century CE?The only reason meetings became clandestine was because of severe persecution.
Precisely the reason why the Christian Christ is portrayed in those four canonical gospel passion narratives as pacific. This figure stood as a direct contrast to the rebellious Jews of 66-70 CE.The Christians believed that they should obey their masters and not rebel
If you do not have any understanding of the region's history and the impact of the First Jewish War on fledgling Christianity, you are not going to make sense of all this.That is all your preconceived opinion and nothing more.
His teaching could have risked violence. For many Jews the Sadducees were regarded as quislings acquiescing to Rome in exchange for maintaining their position and privileges.His teaching did
Then they are not reliable witnesses.When ever 4 different people view an event or when they ask different witnesses who were there to recount what happened, you think it would be identical? That would be the height of vanity.
In order to establish the kingdom of god in Israel - i.e. a theocracy - entailed the removal of Rome in that region.
You do not consider that Pilate [and Rome] regarded that as a threat?
As previously noted this region seethed with resentment against Rome and had already witnessed two serious rebellions. Nor was this the only Messianic movement. There had been others before Jesus and there would be others who proclaimed, or were proclaimed, to be Messiahs after him.
The insurrection happened 70 AD by Jews. At this time Christians were also severely persecuted.What severe persecution in the late first century CE?
Nothing but speculation.Precisely the reason why the Christian Christ is portrayed in those four canonical gospel passion narratives as pacific. This figure stood as a direct contrast to the rebellious Jews of 66-70 CE.
Jewish war on Christianity?If you do not have any understanding of the region's history and the impact of the First Jewish War on fledgling Christianity, you are not going to make sense of all this.
No. His teaching definitely could not Prove that it could?His teaching could have risked violence. For many Jews the Sadducees were regarded as quislings acquiescing to Rome in exchange for maintaining their position and privileges.
So? It proves that they had the ear of the Preafectus and that they could manipulate a situation.You should also remember that the position of the High Priest was in the power of the Praefectus who could appoint and remove individuals [as Pilate's predecessor had done several times]. Furthermore, at this period the sacerdotal vestments required by the High Priest for Jewish Holy Days were held in the Antonia and only handed over for the duration.
Says who? Do you think your opinion trumps that of many witnesses.Then they are not reliable witnesses.
From where do you get that figure?Not by a man with 72 followers no.
That is nothing but later Christian apologetics as I have made clear. Claiming, or being acclaimed as, the Jewish Messiah - the King of the Jews - was a capital offence.He found no fault with Jesus.
More Christian sensationalism.The Sanhedrin threatened rebellion if Jesus was not charged.
The Passover amnesty is a manifest fiction.Pilate even offered Barabbas a known killer and thief in the place of Jesus, and the Jews shouted in unison for Jesus to be killed.
Do not forget 4 BCE and 6 CE.The insurrection happened 70 AD by Jews.
Where were Christians "severely persecuted" in 70 CE?At this time Christians were also severely persecuted.
If Pilate sincerely believed in Jesus' innocence he could have had the prisoner transferred to Caesarea for further interrogation.Pilate wanted to free him.
I recommend you check the Greek.The Jews freed a known killer and thief in order to have Jesus crucified.
There was no Christianity at that period. Or are you trying tell us that Jesus was a Christian?Jewish war on Christianity?
While Jesus was alive?
The First Jewish War was 66 CE. The rebellion of Judas was 6 CE and the rebellion put down by Varus was in 4 BCE.When was the Jewish war?
To establish a theocracy required the removal of Rome. Now how Jesus anticipated that to be accomplished is open to speculation. However, proclaiming, or being proclaimed as the Jewish Messiah carried a capital sentence.No. His teaching definitely could not Prove that it could?
So? It proves that they had the ear of the Preafectus and that they could manipulate a situation.
Oh please, your appeal to me not using the gospels is a sad attempt.From where do you get that figure?
Furthermore, this was a major Jewish festival, the usual population of Jerusalem would be swollen by thousands of pilgrims coming in from surrounding areas. That is the reason the Praefectus went to Jerusalem at Jewish festivals, taking with him additional troops to support the garrison in the Antonia in case trouble should break out.
That is nothing but later Christian apologetics as I have made clear. Claiming, or being acclaimed as, the Jewish Messiah - the King of the Jews - was a capital offence.
More Christian sensationalism.
The Passover amnesty is a manifest fiction.
Furthermore, why should a Roman military governor be intimidated and swayed by a vociferous local mob into condemning a prisoner he had previously acknowledged to be innocent of any crime?
Do not forget 4 BCE and 6 CE.
Where were Christians "severely persecuted" in 70 CE?
If Pilate sincerely believed in Jesus' innocence he could have had the prisoner transferred to Caesarea for further interrogation.
I recommend you check the Greek.
There was no Christianity at that period. Or are you trying tell us that Jesus was a Christian?
The First Jewish War was 66 CE. The rebellion of Judas was 6 CE and the rebellion put down by Varus was in 4 BCE.
To establish a theocracy required the removal of Rome. Now how Jesus anticipated that to be accomplished is open to speculation. However, proclaiming, or being proclaimed as the Jewish Messiah carried a capital sentence.
It proves nothing of the sort.
However, it does prove that you hold to the old calumny of the Jews as the Christ killers.
And we know where that ultimately led, don't we? To the gates of Treblinka and Auschwitz.
So the "Feeding of the 5,000" is wrong? There were no crowds to welcome Jesus into Jerusalem?You think a man with less than 100 followers...
Do you know what happened after the feeding of the 5000?So the "Feeding of the 5,000" is wrong? There were no crowds to welcome Jesus into Jerusalem?
Do you know what happened after the feeding of the 5000?So the "Feeding of the 5,000" is wrong? There were no crowds to welcome Jesus into Jerusalem?
You cannot cite the gospel accounts in order to verify the gospel accounts.Oh please, your appeal to me not using the gospels is a sad attempt.
Your emotional appeal that Hitler hated the Jews because they were so called Christ killers is just intellectual laziness and worthless.
You think a man with less than 100 followers, who healed people, spoke about love of enemies, and instructing his followers and the Sanhedrin to give to Caesar what is due Caesar was this big insurrectionist that threatened Rome. It is ridiculous.
What did threaten Rome was the piousness of Christians after the death of Jesus.
That is why emperors like Nero had them tortured and killed in their thousands. His depravity was exposed and that he could not stand.
Nothing has changed since.
Christianity remains non violent. Anyone can be born into a religion. That does not automatically make you a follower of God.
It is logic 101
The Christian religion and its adherents have persecuted the Jews for nearly two millennia for those calumnies that first appear your Christian writings. Hitler came from a devout Christian society, as did Himmler and other leading Nazis and they merely utilised existing resentment and hatred.
So, let's see what the man himself had to say:Why did Hitler hate the Jewish people?
Your claim that he was a devout Christian because his parents were is ridiculously naive.
Not just the RCC, but the Protestant churches as well. Luther wrote 'On the Jews and their Lies' in 1543, after his split from Rome.If the RCC who persecuted not only Jewish People but also reformed Christians and Muslims is your go to, then your argument is just as ignorant.
Well he obviously couldn't even get his facts right as Jesus never summoned anyone to fight against the Jews.So, let's see what the man himself had to say:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."-- Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922
Context of that letter?Not just the RCC, but the Protestant churches as well. Luther wrote 'On the Jews and their Lies' in 1543, after his split from Rome.