ReverendRV
Well-known member
Universalism?
David1701
Well-known member
Jesus did indeed come to save, not to try (and often fail) to save! Everything God does is effectual; he cannot be thwarted.
Matt. 1:21 (MKJV) And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
Rom. 9:15-24 (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
ReverendRV
Well-known member
So what restrictions do you place on the Atonement then?
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Amen and Amen...The same ones John does in 1 John 2:2. It’s the other sides , systematic theology .As you would say should be embraced like John 6:44. Hint hint
Manfred
Well-known member
Excellent rebuttal.
I am pretty sure the ignorant will just ignore this with a stupid "oops" or "next"
There are a bunch of milk sops around here who are completely unable to even respond in any mature manner to what you wrote above.
Manfred
Well-known member
What cop-out.
The logical conclusion to the nonsense you post is universalism, and then you try and hide behind a banned topic instead of seeing your own fallacies and to where they lead.
Predestined
Well-known member
Wise man... Sounds like the bait of Satan.
Manfred
Well-known member
Is that the best you could do after he shot down your supposed milk sop stories?
You should try and disprove the sovereignty of God a bit harder.
You and your self worship, is starting to look better and better to the other self worshippers around here.
Those that understand the sovereignty of God can see right through your pomp and bluster.
Why not try and actually reply to the rebuttal posted by @Sketo instead of burying your head deeper.
Manfred
Well-known member
You did not even give me a chance to quote you... Lol
Here:
Howy said:
No one seeks God ... Rom 3:10ff
you replied
JohnnyBgood
And Jesus came to seek and save the lost . And all are lost .
If all are lost and no one seeks God, but Jesus came to seek and save the lost, then either all are saved which is universalism, or only the ones that Jesus chooses to save are saved.
So which is it?
Make up your mind if you can.
Manfred
Well-known member
And?
Does this teach God is not sovereign?
How does this help you show that man is sovereign over God, which you are so desperately trying to prove?
Please do some proper exegesis for us to see and understand, or did you just google something and think you have now proven God is not sovereign without looking at context....
Are you even able to?
Manfred
Well-known member
And?
This does not help your case at all.
No one seeks for God. How can they receive Him if they did not seek Him?
So either Jesus universally saves, or he only reveals Himself to some who then receive Him.
Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Your interpretation of the verse above will read something like:
everyone knows the father apart from the Son and most choose to reject Him....
Manfred
Well-known member
Answer the question.
Does this mean God is NOT sovereign, and that man is sovereign over God?
If yes, then please explain how man is sovereign over God or perhaps your understanding of those so called "self evident" scriptures lead you to believe that God is not Sovereign.
A God that is not sovereign, is no God at all!
So explain to us so that we can all stand in awe of your wisdom, how a god that is not sovereign, is GOD ALMIGHTY
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Manfred
Well-known member
Absolutely right, yet the other posters take verses from their context all the time in order to keep their self-worship alive and kicking.
One of them already stated that God is not sovereign, claiming the verses he quoted is self-evident proving an impotent god.
They truly believe self sovereign when it comes to salvation, putting the god they want to believe in, in his place.....
Manfred
Well-known member
Oh, but you are playing a game aren't you?
Please explain how those scriptures which YOU CLAIM are self evident, prove that God is not God Almighty but rather god, incompetent!
You can't so you hide behind " I don't play the QA game"
Stating scripture is self evident without exegesis nor context is nothing but the cowards way out of having to face the truth that God is sovereign over all.
Manfred
Well-known member
Mat_12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
People are quick to judge, and then even judge the wrong people in doing so.
I am sorry that you were accused of being lead by Satan on my behalf.
Predestined
Well-known member
No you're cool always. I was talking about the "U" word.
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God, in His absolute sovereignty, made man an icon image of Himself (Gen 1:26), gifting man with a mind and a conscience (Rom 2:15). With that conscience, God's propitiation for the whole world (1 John 2:2), and God's metaphorical drawing of man (John 6:44), everyone is exhorted to "Repent and Believe" (Mark 1:15) in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This all happens under God's absolute sovereignty of that which He allows and permits to occur.
Predestined
Well-known member
Calvinists make a mistake by imaging that the message to fallow Jesus was a demand when, in reality, it was an invitation. Unfortunately, there are many people who make the same mistake about Jesus Christ and the gospel. They think it is a demand when in reality it is an offer—a free invitation that you are free to accept or reject.
In Matthew 11:25–30, Jesus speaks what I believe are the most tender and appealing words he ever uttered: Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. What a beautiful invasion!
1. Christology. Jesus is the unique agent of God calling for participation with him in the banquet of salvation promised by Isaiah 25:6–9.
2. Excuses. The excuses people offer for refusing his invitation are insulting and unacceptable.
3. Anger, suffering and costly love. The experiential realities of anger, suffering and costly love are linked in the response of the master who takes the pain of his anger and reprocesses it into grace. Part of the theology of the cross is at the heart of this transformation of anger into grace.
4. Now and the not yet. The great banquet is inaugurated yet looks to the future.
5. Grace. A genuine invitation is extended to unworthy types from within and without the community. Special pleading is mandated for those outsiders who will have a hard time accepting the authenticity of an invitation to accept grace.
6. Mission. Someone must take the good news of the open banquet to outcasts within and beyond the community. The invitation is limitless. It includes Israel, outcasts within Israel and foreigners beyond Israel’s bounds.
7. Vision for proclamation. The obedient servant becomes a witness for his master and takes the invitation to the outcasts. This action on his part widens his vision and excites him. In the process he notes the empty tables and starts to fill them. His participation as a messenger of the generous invitation creates its own new vision and the will to participate in fulfilling it. Only after the servant’s report does the master give the final command to reach beyond the community with the same gracious invitation. Was the master waiting to give the servant the opportunity to share with him in broadening the mandate of the banquet? Did the master think to himself, I will give my servant time to grow into my larger vision because only then will it be his vision as well?
8. Response to the invitation. Those who hear the good news must accept and enter the banquet hall or reject and stand aloof. Participation is not possible at a distance.
9. Judgment. Judgment is self-imposed. Those who refuse the invitation cut themselves off from the fellowship of the host and his guests. They choose not to taste the banquet.
From Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes CULTURAL STUDIES IN THE GOSPELS KENNETH E. BAILEY
In Matthew 11:25–30, Jesus speaks what I believe are the most tender and appealing words he ever uttered: Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. What a beautiful invasion!
The Parable of the Great Banquet
1. Christology. Jesus is the unique agent of God calling for participation with him in the banquet of salvation promised by Isaiah 25:6–9.
2. Excuses. The excuses people offer for refusing his invitation are insulting and unacceptable.
3. Anger, suffering and costly love. The experiential realities of anger, suffering and costly love are linked in the response of the master who takes the pain of his anger and reprocesses it into grace. Part of the theology of the cross is at the heart of this transformation of anger into grace.
4. Now and the not yet. The great banquet is inaugurated yet looks to the future.
5. Grace. A genuine invitation is extended to unworthy types from within and without the community. Special pleading is mandated for those outsiders who will have a hard time accepting the authenticity of an invitation to accept grace.
6. Mission. Someone must take the good news of the open banquet to outcasts within and beyond the community. The invitation is limitless. It includes Israel, outcasts within Israel and foreigners beyond Israel’s bounds.
7. Vision for proclamation. The obedient servant becomes a witness for his master and takes the invitation to the outcasts. This action on his part widens his vision and excites him. In the process he notes the empty tables and starts to fill them. His participation as a messenger of the generous invitation creates its own new vision and the will to participate in fulfilling it. Only after the servant’s report does the master give the final command to reach beyond the community with the same gracious invitation. Was the master waiting to give the servant the opportunity to share with him in broadening the mandate of the banquet? Did the master think to himself, I will give my servant time to grow into my larger vision because only then will it be his vision as well?
8. Response to the invitation. Those who hear the good news must accept and enter the banquet hall or reject and stand aloof. Participation is not possible at a distance.
9. Judgment. Judgment is self-imposed. Those who refuse the invitation cut themselves off from the fellowship of the host and his guests. They choose not to taste the banquet.
From Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes CULTURAL STUDIES IN THE GOSPELS KENNETH E. BAILEY
The Invitation to the Banquet
In the parables of Matt 22:3–6 and Luke 14:16–20, those who are first invited to the feast refuse to come. As a result, the host invites those who would normally not be expected to attend (Matt 22:7–14; Luke 14:21–24; see also Matt 8:11–12; Luke 13:28–29). According to these parables, it is the invitees’ response to the invitation that grants them access to banquet.