Resisting God, His Grace, His Spirit

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guest1

Guest
Do you believe those “BELIEVERS” were born again/ regenerate before they fell away?

Did they become unborn again/ unregenerate when they fell away?

Why or Why not?

I believe the writer of Hebrews and his inspired words and warning to believer. I'm no longer bound by a systematic such as tulip. I defend the bible now , not the doctrines of men such as the solas and tulip.

And I'm deep diving into the early church pre augustine . This is my new passion/study to see the universal things the church believed and taught until augustine came along.

I will be compliling a list with sources that will be refuting augustianism and his gnostic, pagan and platonic influence on scripture.
 

Howie

Well-known member
Resisting Gods grace in salvation spelled out in Scripture. Hebrews is written to BELIEVERS who can fall away as we read also in Hebrews 6:4-6. The P in the flower petal just fell off.

Hebrews 10
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.


36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

hope this helps !!!
Clear and simple evidence to the contrary:

Jn 10:27-29 ... 27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

What we're witnessing with @Chalcedon, is a falling away from sound doctrine that manifests itself in a gross misunderstanding of what is being said in Hebrews, and rejection of the words of Jesus found in John 10.
 

Howie

Well-known member
I believe the writer of Hebrews and his inspired words and warning to believer. I'm no longer bound by a systematic such as tulip. I defend the bible now , not the doctrines of men such as the solas and tulip.

And I'm deep diving into the early church pre augustine . This is my new passion/study to see the universal things the church believed and taught until augustine came along.

I will be compliling a list with sources that will be refuting augustianism and his gnostic, pagan and platonic influence on scripture.
Dodges the question -- the result of bad theology.
 
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guest1

Guest
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Amen. The best thing of all is all the interest there is from others about this topic and how it will be tied into my thesis paper. I spoke with a pastor just yesterday at work about my ideas and his doctorate was in early church history. He encouraged me with this study and will be providing me some resources. He agreed with everything I said with augustine and calvin.

So I'm definitely barking up the right tree and going in the right direction the Lord is leading me into these days. I love the freedom there is in Christ now. I'm no longer locked into a tiny theological box. :)

Keep those ad hominems coming its an affirmation of the truth. With each and every personal comment it lets me know the errors are being exposed and the truth is being proclaimed.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Howie

Well-known member
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Amen. The best thing of all is all the interest there is from others about this topic and how it will be tied into my thesis paper. I spoke with a pastor just yesterday at work about my ideas and his doctorate was in early church history. He encouraged me with this study and will be providing me some resources. He agreed with everything I said with augustine and calvin.

So I'm definitely barking up the right tree and going in the right direction the Lord is leading me into these days. I love the freedom there is in Christ now. I'm no longer locked into a tiny theological box. :)

keep the ad hominems coming its an affirmation of the truth.
Boasts of himself and his bad theology pastors ... 😏

Very ungodly behavior.
 
G

guest1

Guest

Ad Hominem​

(Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument. The fallacious attack can also be direct to membership in a group or institution. Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

Examples:

  1. Student: Hey, Professor Moore, we shouldn't have to read this book by Freud. Everyone knows he used cocaine.
  2. Socrates' arguments about human excellence are rubbish. What could a man as ugly as he know about human excellence.
  3. Yeah, I think everyone's opinion counts on moral matters like that, but that Lila sleeps around with anything. I know of at least one marriage she's broken up, so why should her opinion count on anything, much less morality?
  4. Of course Marx' theories about the ideal society are bunk. The guy spent all his time in the library.
  5. We cannot approve of this recycling idea. It was thought of by a bunch of hippie communist weirdos.
  6. There's no reason to take seriously Nietzsche's ideas about the Superman. Weak and sickly all his short life, of course he found this concept captivating. In psychology, we call this compensation.
  7. I was assigned a personal trainer at the Rec, and he gave me a new workout program. But I don't have any confidence in his expertise, since he has obvious trouble controlling his own appetite.
  8. No, I will not reply. I see no need to defend my views against the objections of ignoramuses.
https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Ad-Hominem.html
 
G

guest1

Guest
The logical structure of an ad hominem is as follows:


  1. Person A makes a claim X.
  2. Person B attacks person A.
  3. Therefore, X is wrong.

When you see the logical structure of the argument it becomes clear why it’s a fallacy. The truth or falsehood of X has nothing to do with the person arguing in support of it. Imagine if X had been written down and you didn’t know who was arguing the case. If you couldn’t prove it wrong with arguments, then you can’t prove it wrong at all.https://ethics.org.au/ethics-explainer-ad-hominem-fallacy/

hope this helps !!!
 

Howie

Well-known member

Ad Hominem​

(Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument. The fallacious attack can also be direct to membership in a group or institution. Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

Examples:

  1. Student: Hey, Professor Moore, we shouldn't have to read this book by Freud. Everyone knows he used cocaine.
  2. Socrates' arguments about human excellence are rubbish. What could a man as ugly as he know about human excellence.
  3. Yeah, I think everyone's opinion counts on moral matters like that, but that Lila sleeps around with anything. I know of at least one marriage she's broken up, so why should her opinion count on anything, much less morality?
  4. Of course Marx' theories about the ideal society are bunk. The guy spent all his time in the library.
  5. We cannot approve of this recycling idea. It was thought of by a bunch of hippie communist weirdos.
  6. There's no reason to take seriously Nietzsche's ideas about the Superman. Weak and sickly all his short life, of course he found this concept captivating. In psychology, we call this compensation.
  7. I was assigned a personal trainer at the Rec, and he gave me a new workout program. But I don't have any confidence in his expertise, since he has obvious trouble controlling his own appetite.
  8. No, I will not reply. I see no need to defend my views against the objections of ignoramuses.
https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Ad-Hominem.html
See here
 

Howie

Well-known member
The logical structure of an ad hominem is as follows:


  1. Person A makes a claim X.
  2. Person B attacks person A.
  3. Therefore, X is wrong.

When you see the logical structure of the argument it becomes clear why it’s a fallacy. The truth or falsehood of X has nothing to do with the person arguing in support of it. Imagine if X had been written down and you didn’t know who was arguing the case. If you couldn’t prove it wrong with arguments, then you can’t prove it wrong at all.https://ethics.org.au/ethics-explainer-ad-hominem-fallacy/

hope this helps !!!
Criticizes Reformers and their theology by name all night and day, but whines when he and his theology are criticized.

Typical of Arminians with bad theology.
 
G

guest1

Guest
The logical structure of an ad hominem is as follows:

  1. Person A makes a claim X.
  2. Person B attacks person A.
  3. Therefore, X is wrong.

When you see the logical structure of the argument it becomes clear why it’s a fallacy. The truth or falsehood of X has nothing to do with the person arguing in support of it. Imagine if X had been written down and you didn’t know who was arguing the case. If you couldn’t prove it wrong with arguments, then you can’t prove it wrong at all.

conclusion: sound arguments address the argument being made not the person. attacking the person and not their arguments is known as the ad hominem fallacy.
 

Howie

Well-known member
The logical structure of an ad hominem is as follows:

  1. Person A makes a claim X.
  2. Person B attacks person A.
  3. Therefore, X is wrong.

When you see the logical structure of the argument it becomes clear why it’s a fallacy. The truth or falsehood of X has nothing to do with the person arguing in support of it. Imagine if X had been written down and you didn’t know who was arguing the case. If you couldn’t prove it wrong with arguments, then you can’t prove it wrong at all.

conclusion: sound arguments address the argument being made not the person. attacking the person and not their arguments is known as the ad hominem fallacy.
Continues in his self deception that he and his bad theology should be immune from criticism ... I will cry with him, 😢
 

Manfred

Well-known member
And by you falsely assuming Irresistible Grace is referring to ALL grace proves my point that you do not understand the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace is referring to a specific grace.

Again… Can you now resist Christ and reject him as foolishness… or has Christ so became to you such that he is irresistible?

If you can not answer this question you will have proven you do not understand Irresistible Grace properly!

It is so simple, yet the proud deny grace over mankind and saving grace.

Everyone resists God's saving grace, until He makes it irresistible to the elect.

The lovers of self cannot bear this.
 

Howie

Well-known member
It is so simple, yet the proud deny grace over mankind and saving grace.

Everyone resists God's saving grace, until He makes it irresistible to the elect.

The lovers of self cannot bear this.
Amen. This not the first time that has been pointed out.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Have you ever considered that Irresistible Grace is referring to a specific gracious act of God? An act of God that brings a person to the point where they perceive the preaching of the cross as no longer foolishness but the power and wisdom of God?

Can you resist Christ now, or has he become to you irresistible?

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1Co 1:18)

“but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called,…Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1Co 1:23-24)

“And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,” (1Co 1:30)


Has Christ became irresistible to you… if not how do you know you are “being saved”?

I would say Christ is irresistable to the already predisposed by previous revelation and libertarian choices in life though they presently still consider it foolishness. God knows who they are.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The law of deceit rules you now. You know the "grace" being referred to is "saving grace." That grace is irresistible. You also know Jesus says those given to Him by the Father to save, WILL COME TO HIM (Jn 6:37). That is irresistible grace.

This is a typical fallacious tactic of anti-Calvinists.
They take something Calvinists believe (saving grace is irresistible), and try to force it to combine with one of THEIR beliefs ("grace is grace", all grace is the same, there's just one kind of grace, "vanilla", given to everyone). And then they falsely try to claim the "contradiction" comes from Calvinism, when in fact it comes from THEIR false beliefs.

NOWHERE does the Bible teach that God gives sinners the "grace to be sinless".
 
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