Rethinking the doctrine of "hell"

False doctrine co-opted from pagan religions and grafted onto the religion of Israel.

which is why you rarely see an OT quote in any of these threads, and why of course nobody wants to talk about the OT, but rather talk about Revelation.
That is not an answer to my question. What, besides being a false doctrine, is hell? What do you think is the purported "false doctrine"? This is important because if whatever you think is the false doctrine isn't the false doctrine then your entire thread is built on a straw man = arguing against a misrepresentation.

I've got a bunch of questions for you, Stephen. You've just shown and ability NOT to answer questions asked. I've got a bunch of questions for you. Just answer the questions asked and not questions not asked. Help me understand from whence this op comes so I can address it specifically from your point of view.

What is hell (from what specifically is it this op dissents)?

Why do the gospels report Jesus using that term?

Answer those two and I'll have another. This is an opportunity for you to 1) build your case incrementally and 2) help others know what you believe, and 3) help other know how you believe what you believe.

What is hell?

Why do the gospels report Jesus using that term?
 
False doctrine co-opted from pagan religions and grafted onto the religion of Israel.

which is why you rarely see an OT quote in any of these threads, and why of course nobody wants to talk about the OT, but rather talk about Revelation.
Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 
But you cannot tell how long an age is can you?
1. The Adamic Age. Gen.1-8-From the creation to the flood.

2. The Noachian Age, Gen.9-11-From the flood to the call of Abraham.

3. The Abrahamic Age, Gen.12-Ex.19-From the call of Abraham to the giving of the law.

4. The Mosaic Age, Ex.20-1 Sam.31-From the giving of the Law to the reign of David.

5. The Davidic Age.2 Sam.1-2 Kings 25-From David's ascension to the throne to the restoration.

6. The Ezraitic Age. Ezra-Mal.-From the restoration to the birth of Christ.

7. The Christian Age. Matt-Rev.-From the birth to the second coming of Christ.

The identified ages of the past (that we are able to determine) all seem to be of different lengths. You knew that.....so your question is rather silly. Of course I cannot tell how long an "Age" will be. But I can tell you how long previous "Ages" have been.

The "ages to come" (I would imagine) will also be of different lengths of time. We shall see........
 
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

YLT [Matthew 25:41] Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

When you read the literal Greek it takes on a different meaning. I know you don't believe this but hopefully some intelligent lurkers will see this.....and understand the silliness of your argument.
 
YLT [Matthew 25:41] Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

When you read the literal Greek it takes on a different meaning. I know you don't believe this but hopefully some intelligent lurkers will see this.....and understand the silliness of your argument.

Even though they are traditionally translated as "forever," and the like, informed people know that neither Greek aion nor Hebrew olam are references to never ending time. These words just do not refer to never ending time. We know this with absolute certainly because each of these words is used in Scripture to refer to situations which are obviously not never ending time (and that fact gets ignored).

But there are also many people who do not like facts which are inconvenient to their own beliefs and so they go right ahead and allow their own personal desires to trump the facts. There are many who are sick with this disease.
 
Last edited:
False doctrine co-opted from pagan religions and grafted onto the religion of Israel.

which is why you rarely see an OT quote in any of these threads, and why of course nobody wants to talk about the OT, but rather talk about Revelation.
Let me tell you about Phred.

Phred was an incorrigible sinner. He was influenced by very shoddy parents who paid more attention to their own conveniences than to Phred's proper upbringing.

Consequently Phred had many problems in school and was always getting into trouble showing no respect for his teachers and using vulgarity (learned from Dad) frequently. He was expelled on more than one occasion and eventually dropped out of school as a teenager and attempted to join the military.

Because of numerous arrests for shoplifting and other petty crimes he was rejected by the Marine Corps, the Navy and the Air force, but the Army eventually accepted him. He was sent to Viet Nam where he was court martialed for insubordination and afterwards desertion. After spending some time at Leavenworth he was finally released back into society. He had rejected the word of God while being evangelized in prison and continued his sinful life thereafter.

There were many commandments of God that he had broken numerous times and was very scornful of the entire idea of salvation through Messiah Yeshua. He called it "Poppycock"!

After being shot and killed by a neighbor for committing adultery with the neighbor's wife (30 years ago) he was sent to Hell....to burn thereafter for his sins.

Since I knew Phred as a young boy I decided I would eventually check to see how he was doing in Hell. I figured I would give it some time to make sure he would be receiving his deserved punishment.

So I decided after 72 quadzillion, 654 septillion, 921 trillion, 14 billion, 489 million, 3 thousand, 182 centuries I would inquire of Yahweh to see if he was still burning as he should. I just picked a random number knowing he would be there forever.......burning.

A just and merciful Yahweh would not do this to Phred........

A just and merciful Great God of the Universe would cause Phred to be put to death.....the second death.......never to experience life again.
 
1. The Adamic Age. Gen.1-8-From the creation to the flood.

2. The Noachian Age, Gen.9-11-From the flood to the call of Abraham.

3. The Abrahamic Age, Gen.12-Ex.19-From the call of Abraham to the giving of the law.

4. The Mosaic Age, Ex.20-1 Sam.31-From the giving of the Law to the reign of David.

5. The Davidic Age.2 Sam.1-2 Kings 25-From David's ascension to the throne to the restoration.

6. The Ezraitic Age. Ezra-Mal.-From the restoration to the birth of Christ.

7. The Christian Age. Matt-Rev.-From the birth to the second coming of Christ.

The identified ages of the past (that we are able to determine) all seem to be of different lengths
Those are your personal claims. Where is the scriptures calling those periods ages as a section of time
You knew that.....so your question is rather silly.
Knew what? Are you a mind reader? And what is a Christian age? You are making up things.
Of course I cannot tell how long an "Age" will be.
But you can make them up as you go along, And you missed the... Judges...
But I can tell you how long previous "Ages" have been.
You personally made up those ages to support your narrative,
The "ages to come" (I would imagine) will also be of different lengths of time. We shall see........
That is exactly what it is—your imagination.
 
Let me tell you about Phred.

Phred was an incorrigible sinner. He was influenced by very shoddy parents who paid more attention to their own conveniences than to Phred's proper upbringing.

Consequently Phred had many problems in school and was always getting into trouble showing no respect for his teachers and using vulgarity (learned from Dad) frequently. He was expelled on more than one occasion and eventually dropped out of school as a teenager and attempted to join the military.

Because of numerous arrests for shoplifting and other petty crimes he was rejected by the Marine Corps, the Navy and the Air force, but the Army eventually accepted him. He was sent to Viet Nam where he was court martialed for insubordination and afterwards desertion. After spending some time at Leavenworth he was finally released back into society. He had rejected the word of God while being evangelized in prison and continued his sinful life thereafter.

There were many commandments of God that he had broken numerous times and was very scornful of the entire idea of salvation through Messiah Yeshua. He called it "Poppycock"!

After being shot and killed by a neighbor for committing adultery with the neighbor's wife (30 years ago) he was sent to Hell....to burn thereafter for his sins.

Since I knew Phred as a young boy I decided I would eventually check to see how he was doing in Hell. I figured I would give it some time to make sure he would be receiving his deserved punishment.

So I decided after 72 quadzillion, 654 septillion, 921 trillion, 14 billion, 489 million, 3 thousand, 182 centuries I would inquire of Yahweh to see if he was still burning as he should. I just picked a random number knowing he would be there forever.......burning.

A just and merciful Yahweh would not do this to Phred........

A just and merciful Great God of the Universe would cause Phred to be put to death.....the second death.......never to experience life again.
Why are you blaming God for what Phred did? Adam sinned and brought death into the world.How long after did all men have to die because he sinned? What did the men born after Adam do to deserve death?
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 
Of course it's not a lie. But.....it is rife with incorrect translating. If you read a good "Literal Translation" this will be readily evident.
It this true? seems like a contradiction.
YLT
To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.
YLT
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'
 
YLT [Matthew 25:41] Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

When you read the literal Greek it takes on a different meaning. I know you don't believe this but hopefully some intelligent lurkers will see this.....and understand the silliness of your argument.
You are not making any sense. Christ's kingdom has no end. The same word used to describe the time in Jesus' kingdom is used to describe the time in the fire.
YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

If life continues in age during then punishment will continue in age during also.

So does Jesus kingdom have an end? If Jesus' kingdom has no end, then punishment has no end.
Read it slowly...
YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.
 
Isaiah 66:24
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
You do realize that carcasses are the indication that the person is dead, not alive and kicking.
 
That is not an answer to my question. What, besides being a false doctrine, is hell? What do you think is the purported "false doctrine"? This is important because if whatever you think is the false doctrine isn't the false doctrine then your entire thread is built on a straw man = arguing against a misrepresentation.

I've got a bunch of questions for you, Stephen. You've just shown and ability NOT to answer questions asked. I've got a bunch of questions for you. Just answer the questions asked and not questions not asked. Help me understand from whence this op comes so I can address it specifically from your point of view.

What is hell (from what specifically is it this op dissents)?

Why do the gospels report Jesus using that term?

Answer those two and I'll have another. This is an opportunity for you to 1) build your case incrementally and 2) help others know what you believe, and 3) help other know how you believe what you believe.

What is hell?

Why do the gospels report Jesus using that term?
Please dial back the hyper judgmentalism and bossy tone. If we both claim to be Christians, such a tone is unbecoming.

You are asking me to give a definition of something that isn’t defined in scripture or consistently defined across denominations. Any answer given would be wrong to most observers regardless of the answer given. Some call it eternal conscious torment, which of course contradicts the idea that it is thrown into the lake of fire. Others call it separation from God, which of course contradicts the idea that God is omnipresent.

As I am traveling without electronics with the exception of my cell phone through the holiday, I will get back to your questions on Monday or thereabouts.
 
There's an excellent book from the Zondervan CounterPoint series titled, "Four Views on Hell." It's so good they re-did it with different authors.

Here are some things not covered in either book:

There are several words used in the Bible for the places people go after they die. Among them are "hell," "hades," "tartarus," "sheol," and "gehenna." The word "hel" is not a Jewish term. It's not "Christian," either. The same goes for "hades" and "tartarus." The terms "sheol" and "gehenna" are Jewish terms, but I'll address them separately. The first three terms are pagan terms, terms used in reference to pagan mythologies, not Judaic theology. We read them in our Greek manuscripts of the New Testament but it's doubtful Jesus used these terms, or that if he did use the terms he did so simply to address the pagan mythologies existing in his time relevant to the true truth he taught about what happens on the other side of the grave. Remember, it's likely Jesus taught in Aramaic, not Greek. Jesus may have used terms like "kukku," "kur," dagon," or names common to the surrounding cultures in the middle east. "Hades" is a Greek term. It comes from Greek mythology. So is "tartarus." Hel is Norse. Jesus may have used the Greek term, but it's not likely he used a Norse term. Possible, not likely. These terms are translations of translations, or more generally recognizable translations of locally familiar terms Jesus used when speaking about the grave, the "underworld," or the places people believed the deceased went when they died.

Sheol and gehenna are different. Sheol is a Jewish term and because of that it is quite likely Jesus used that term and used it most often, simply because it was a Jewish term firmly rooted in the Jewish scriptures, and the one with which his Jewish audience would have been most familiar. However, there are specific connotations relevant to that term that aren't applicable to all the others. I'll cover that after this: "gehenna" was a reference to the trash pit outside of Jerusalem. The valley of Hinnom surrounded a portion of Jerusalem and it was a place where people discarded their refuse. Anyone who has ever visited an old municipal landfill knows the debris there often catches fire. Landfills where the trash is buried have methane vents due to the gases given off through decomposition, and sometimes fire can be seen coming from those vents. The trash burns endlessly, or seemingly so.

Sheol is entirely different. Mostly. In traditional Judaism "the dead know nothing." The ancient Jewish theology held this life was all there is an after that there was nothing. It was during the intertestamental period that the belief in an afterlife or a resurrection became substantive in Jewish theology, but even then it was not the norm. This belief in life after death was one of the matters that separated the Pharisees from the Sadducees. The Pharisees were a minority. The prevailing Jewish point of view was death was final.

The scriptures that allude to a life aside from the grave are part of the veiled soteriological and eschatological texts later revealed more substantively in the New Testament, the newer revelation. The gospel was preached to Abraham. David understood a resurrection would come and he understood God would be present in the depths; there was no place God would not be for His own. But this was not orthodox Jewish theology.

So in the pagan views, the pagan religions, the pagan mythologies, there was a life after death, but it was a miserable existence living in the underworld ruled by a lesser god. The only exception was the possibility of being elevated in status to live among the gods in places like the Elysian Fields or Valhalla. That was for a privileged few. And then there was the nihilistic nothing of sheol.



Jesus spoke to all these conditions, likely using very diverse terms familiar to his first century audience, but he also taught something MUCH different than all of them.

I'll cover that in my next post but this one is lengthy and the misses is summoning me ;).
 
Do you realize that dead persons are resurrected ?

And made into dead corpses?

There's an excellent book from the Zondervan CounterPoint series titled, "Four Views on Hell." It's so good they re-did it with different authors.

Here are some things not covered in either book:

There are several words used in the Bible for the places people go after they die.

Justin Martyr and Irenaeus described how this error originated with the Gnostics.

You didn't make it far without blowing it.

Among them are "hell," "hades," "tartarus," "sheol," and "gehenna." The word "hel" is not a Jewish term. It's not "Christian," either. The same goes for "hades" and "tartarus." The terms "sheol" and "gehenna" are Jewish terms, but I'll address them separately. The first three terms are pagan terms, terms used in reference to pagan mythologies, not Judaic theology. We read them in our Greek manuscripts of the New Testament but it's doubtful Jesus used these terms, or that if he did use the terms he did so simply to address the pagan mythologies existing in his time relevant to the true truth he taught about what happens on the other side of the grave. Remember, it's likely Jesus taught in Aramaic, not Greek. Jesus may have used terms like "kukku," "kur," dagon," or names common to the surrounding cultures in the middle east. "Hades" is a Greek term. It comes from Greek mythology. So is "tartarus." Hel is Norse. Jesus may have used the Greek term, but it's not likely he used a Norse term. Possible, not likely. These terms are translations of translations, or more generally recognizable translations of locally familiar terms Jesus used when speaking about the grave, the "underworld," or the places people believed the deceased went when they died.

Sheol and gehenna are different. Sheol is a Jewish term and because of that it is quite likely Jesus used that term and used it most often, simply because it was a Jewish term firmly rooted in the Jewish scriptures, and the one with which his Jewish audience would have been most familiar. However, there are specific connotations relevant to that term that aren't applicable to all the others. I'll cover that after this: "gehenna" was a reference to the trash pit outside of Jerusalem. The valley of Hinnom surrounded a portion of Jerusalem and it was a place where people discarded their refuse. Anyone who has ever visited an old municipal landfill knows the debris there often catches fire. Landfills where the trash is buried have methane vents due to the gases given off through decomposition, and sometimes fire can be seen coming from those vents. The trash burns endlessly, or seemingly so.

Sheol is entirely different. Mostly. In traditional Judaism "the dead know nothing." The ancient Jewish theology held this life was all there is an after that there was nothing. It was during the intertestamental period that the belief in an afterlife or a resurrection became substantive in Jewish theology, but even then it was not the norm. This belief in life after death was one of the matters that separated the Pharisees from the Sadducees. The Pharisees were a minority. The prevailing Jewish point of view was death was final.

The scriptures that allude to a life aside from the grave are part of the veiled soteriological and eschatological texts later revealed more substantively in the New Testament, the newer revelation. The gospel was preached to Abraham. David understood a resurrection would come and he understood God would be present in the depths; there was no place God would not be for His own. But this was not orthodox Jewish theology.

So in the pagan views, the pagan religions, the pagan mythologies, there was a life after death, but it was a miserable existence living in the underworld ruled by a lesser god. The only exception was the possibility of being elevated in status to live among the gods in places like the Elysian Fields or Valhalla. That was for a privileged few. And then there was the nihilistic nothing of sheol.



Jesus spoke to all these conditions, likely using very diverse terms familiar to his first century audience, but he also taught something MUCH different than all of them.

I'll cover that in my next post but this one is lengthy and the misses is summoning me ;).
 
Last edited:
PART 2:

In the previous post I mentioned the pagan view that life continued past the grave but it was a miserable existence in the underworld...... unless one was honored with the privilege of living in a higher realm such as the Elysian Fields or Valhalla. There are a couple of important features or aspects to note about these conditions. The first is that in both Judaism and Christianity there are no other gods but God. Recent ideas posited in Christianity by Christian theologians who've study with Jewish rabbis, such a Tim Mackie or Michael Heiser, have expounded upon the Jewish mythologies and the angelic realm. Satan is not a god. None of the angels or archangels are gods. Elohim are not God, nor gods as imagined by the pagan mythologies. Somewhat indirectly, I'll also make note of Paul's rhetorical question, "What is an idol?" and his answer, "An idol is nothing," to suggest Paul is implicating all paganisms. There are no gods but God and all the idols representing those "gods" are created representations of nothing - of non-existent gods - that are nothing.

So.... no lesser gods. All conceptualizations of any life after death having anything to do with any lesser gods are inconsistent with what Jesus taught and therefore false.

What Jesus taught was truth, so when Jesus is reported in the Greek manuscripts to have used the words "hel," "hades," or "tartarus," he is not in any way affirming the pagan mythologies or their paradigm of life after death.

The "promotion" to Elysium deserves some comment, too, because it sounds similar to some of what Jesus taught. Liberal theologians compare the two equivalently. They are wrong to do so for several reasons (some of them unrelated to the subject of this op). Most importantly for this op is the fact that promotion was works based, not grace-based. If a person accomplished some extraordinarily great and heroic feat, he might earn the honor and privilege or promotion to Elysium. In Imperial Rome this was reserved for Caesars or military generals who were victorious in battle. In Greece and Rome this was called "deification." Caesars were deified. To say a Caesar was a "god," or deified, did not literally make him a god. It simply meant they got to be worshipped as gods and live among the gods in the afterlife.

This should not be confused with eternal life in Christ.

Off-topic to this op but worth noting because it is intrinsic to the meaning of the word "gospel": Jesus is God; Caesar is NOT. Jesus came back from the dead alive in the flesh. Not even Caesar could do that.


Then there is the already discussed orthodox Jewish pov: nothingness. Jesus did not teach that, either.

Gehenna was an analogy. Jesus used "gehenna" as an illustration of endless burning and this particular illustration stands apart from his other analogies, such as chaff or weeds thrown into a fire because chaff and weeds thrown into a fire disintegrate; they burn up and become ash and they do so near-instantly. Gehenna was a place where the refuse burned near-endlessly. It burned endlessly because there was no end of trash, not because one single piece of trash took forever to burn up.

More about that in my next post.




(sorry, gotta take another break)
 
Back
Top