Rethinking the doctrine of "hell"

1. The Adamic Age. Gen.1-8-From the creation to the flood.

2. The Noachian Age, Gen.9-11-From the flood to the call of Abraham.

3. The Abrahamic Age, Gen.12-Ex.19-From the call of Abraham to the giving of the law.

4. The Mosaic Age, Ex.20-1 Sam.31-From the giving of the Law to the reign of David.

5. The Davidic Age.2 Sam.1-2 Kings 25-From David's ascension to the throne to the restoration.

6. The Ezraitic Age. Ezra-Mal.-From the restoration to the birth of Christ.

7. The Christian Age. Matt-Rev.-From the birth to the second coming of Christ.

The identified ages of the past (that we are able to determine) all seem to be of different lengths. You knew that.....so your question is rather silly. Of course I cannot tell how long an "Age" will be. But I can tell you how long previous "Ages" have been.

The "ages to come" (I would imagine) will also be of different lengths of time. We shall see........
Dispensational rubbish.
 
Off-topic to this op but worth noting because it is intrinsic to the meaning of the word "gospel": Jesus is God; Caesar is NOT. Jesus came back from the dead alive in the flesh. Not even Caesar could do that.
Jesus never said he is God. Jesus said he is the son of God. You are saying God died and came back from the dead. In other words you thought God was a mortal. Was God a mortal? It is appointed unto man once to die. Your folly has been exposed.
 
Please dial back the hyper judgmentalism and bossy tone. If we both claim to be Christians, such a tone is unbecoming.

You are asking me to give a definition of something that isn’t defined in scripture or consistently defined across denominations. Any answer given would be wrong to most observers regardless of the answer given. Some call it eternal conscious torment, which of course contradicts the idea that it is thrown into the lake of fire. Others call it separation from God, which of course contradicts the idea that God is omnipresent.

As I am traveling without electronics with the exception of my cell phone through the holiday, I will get back to your questions on Monday or thereabouts.
Since you made the following statement: "You do realize that carcasses are the indication that the person is dead, not alive and kicking." How many (according to you)`` completely dead people do you know that will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth" according to Jesus at Luke 13:28?

And at Matthew 25:41, "Then He will say to those on the left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." This thread of yours is "jam-packed" with contradictions and "arguments" from silence.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
Part 3: What Jesus and the New Testament writers teach:

What we find in the New Testament is a simple dichotomy: eternal life or eternal destruction. Those in Christ are raised incorruptible and immortal to face judgment that is without condemnation. Those not in Christ stand already condemned and without any recompense for sin are raised to face judgment that will result in their destruction.

There are mainly two Greek words used for the destruction described in the New Testament. One is "phthoran," which means "decay," "rot," or "decomposing." It is translated in our Bibles as "corruption" or "destruction," but it is not a term that means annihilation or the cessation of existence. Galatians 6:8 is an example of this term. The other main Greek term used is "apolesai." This is the term Jesus used in Matthew 10:28. This term does carry with it the connotation of utter destruction, the cessation of existence, or annihilation.

Most of the analogies Jesus and the NT writers used logically result in the latter. As I mentioned previously, chaff thrown into a fire is literally destroyed. It turns to ash and ceases to exist as chaff. The same holds true of weeds thrown into a fiery furnace when the analogy is taken literally. Some resist this because of the mentions of the worm that is never satisfied and the endless gnashing of teeth, but these can just as readily be read to mean the sheer magnitude of destruction is near endless and Jesus is using hyperbole.

Ultimately, this boils down to a single, simple question: Does death continue to exist in the new creation? 1 Corinthians 15:26 tells us the last enemy destroyed is death. The NAS does a better job translating this verse because the Greek term is "katargetai," which means abolished, abolished, or discharged (G2673). Death gets cancelled. This does not mean it ceases to exist. In the book of Revelation, we are told death is thrown into the fiery lake. Death is not all that is thrown in this fiery lake; along with anyone whose name is not found in the book of life, death AND HADES are also thrown into the fiery lake. The fiery lake is the second death, the death of the dead...... and the underworld in which they'd live.

Now if this fiery lake does not destroy death to the point where it ceases to exist then death continues to exist in creation. It is cancelled but it persists. If this is the case then the same holds true for satan. He is torturously bound, but still continues to exist. He lives a torturous existence, but 1) it's not under the rule of a lesser god, and 2) his presence still exists, which means the new heavens and earth is not a restoration of the pristine creation, nor an improvement on it, that God first created as described in scripture. It is not new and neither is it wholly restored and wholly reconciled. Not only are there a bunch of endlessly tortured dead people AND the persistent existence of humanity's adversary, there is also the persistent existence of death. Death suffers the second death but doesn't die. It lives.

The way to reconcile this is to view the mentions of the unsatisfied worm and the endless teeth gnashing as hyperbole and the normal consequence of things thrown into fire literally...... and then reconcile the two. The conclusion to which this leads is there is a lengthy period of suffering, one that may be occurring in a realm where time is much different than that which we experience here on earth, but is nonetheless lengthy, and it culminates in the utter destruction of those who deny Christ (antichrists) and death - the eventual cessation of their existence such that there no longer exists God-deniers, the adversary or his other minions, the underworld people mythologically imagined to exist, and death itself is no more.

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.

No more death. The Greek here is "thanatos ouk estai eri," which transliterally means "no existence in time."








I know some will disagree because this post is a modified form of annihilation and annihilationism is generally associated with Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Open Theism. I am NOT SDA, JW, or an Open Theist, and I am not espousing their theology. Those cults have appropriated a view that has been held throughout Christian history by some, even though it has not been the mainstream position. J. I. Packer was annihilationist. Can't get much more theologically orthodox than Packer. Affirmative consideration of annihilation go back as far as Ignatius in the first century and include the ECFs Martyr and Irenaeus. The first formal defense of what I have posted is generally recognized to have occurred in the third century AD, by the Christian apologist Arnobius. Many other prominent Christian figures have considered the cessation of existence as described above, including John Wesley, C. S. Lewis, F. F. Bruce, John Stott, and John Stackhouse, jr.





In summary, the classic orthodox Sadducean Jewish position of no life after death is not what Jesus taught. The position of the Pharisees is more compatible with what Jesus taught. The pagan iterations of an underworld ruled by a lesser god, and the works-based view of Elysium or Valhalla are also not what Jesus taught. Neither did Jesus teach universalism. What Jesus taught was a simple dichotomy between eternal life and eternal destruction such that hades and death die. There is one God, and only one God and He and He alone rules over everything, including death and life.
 
Since you made the following statement: "You do realize that carcasses are the indication that the person is dead, not alive and kicking." How many (according to you)`` completely dead people do you know that will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth" according to Jesus at Luke 13:28?

And at Matthew 25:41, "Then He will say to those on the left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." This thread of yours is "jam-packed" with contradictions and "arguments" from silence.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Dead corpses weeping and gnashing their teeth?
 
Jesus didn't say anything about corpses weeping and gnashing their teeth.

Your own confusion did that.
Obviously you are "Biblically" ignorant. Read Luke 13:28 and Matthew 8:12 for starters. Then there is the words of Jesus Himself at Matthew 25:41, 46. "Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Vs46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the3 righteous into eternal life." Checkmate, oh foolish one.

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
Obviously you are "Biblically" ignorant. Read Luke 13:28 and Matthew 8:12 for starters. Then there is the words of Jesus Himself at Matthew 25:41, 46. "Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Vs46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the3 righteous into eternal life." Checkmate, oh foolish one.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Oh golly, I never even though about those verses which everyone on the planet knows about. Where did you find them? Somewhere in the back?

Corpses don't weep and gnash their teeth. But maybe in your fantasy world they do.
 

Rethinking the doctrine of "hell"​

Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

The unspecified "eternal punishment" Yeshua referred to is the eternal destruction Paul specified. It refers to ruin, doom, destruction, death, punishment. The death/destruction of the wicked is mentioned upwards of two dozens times through the Bible. Eternal torment for all unsaved people isn't something in the Bible or something Yeshua and the apostles taught.

The idea being conveyed by Yeshua and Paul is the converse of what they've been saying all along; eternal life for the faithful believer, death for the wicked. If one is literal, the other is literal.
 
Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

The unspecified "eternal punishment" Yeshua referred to is the eternal destruction Paul specified. It refers to ruin, doom, destruction, death, punishment. The death/destruction of the wicked is mentioned upwards of two dozens times through the Bible. Eternal torment for all unsaved people isn't something in the Bible or something Yeshua and the apostles taught.

The idea being conveyed by Yeshua and Paul is the converse of what they've been saying all along; eternal life for the faithful believer, death for the wicked. If one is literal, the other is literal.

Some seem to think the new creation of God has both a beautiful paradise for some and an ugly prison of torture for others. It must look a lot like Texas.

It always seemed to me that Scripture teaches that the infinitely wise and powerful God is somehow able to do better than that. He has always been able to work all things, whether good or evil, for the His good.

I wonder if this torture prison will allow visitors from paradise.

And who is running this torture chamber anyway? Who is the appointed warden?
 
Some seem to think the new creation of God has both a beautiful paradise for some and an ugly prison of torture for others. It must look a lot like Texas.

It always seemed to me that Scripture teaches that the infinitely wise and powerful God is somehow able to do better than that. He has always been able to work all things, whether good or evil, for the His good.

I wonder if this torture prison will allow visitors from paradise.

And who is running this torture chamber anyway? Who is the appointed warden?

I don't really know as it is quite difficult for me to assume the mindset of someone who has imagined the eternal torture of someone. Perhaps the idea of eternal torment attracts sadists?

Nothing about eternal torment is mentioned in the Old Testament so when Yeshua talked about eternal punishment then the listeners, if they knew their scripture, would have understood that to be the destruction/death of the wicked. The New Testament continues in lockstep with the Old Testament narrative on that point.

The eternal torment doctrine is something that's propagated by the church. It keeps people in pews and under control with fear so they continue to empty their pockets for them. The kind of worshippers God is seeking are those who love Him and He gives them good reasons to do so. Obedience to God for fear of punishment is insincere lip service, but perfect love casts out fear.

I also might add that the church is directly responsible for the repulsion of countless non-Christians. I've spoken with people who want nothing to do with God or the church because someone made Him out to be a monster. Tragic.
 
Oh golly, I never even though about those verses which everyone on the planet knows about. Where did you find them? Somewhere in the back?

Corpses don't weep and gnash their teeth. But maybe in your fantasy world they do.
I have a brilliant idea oh clueless one. Suppose you show me your interpretation of the words of Jesus in a way that demonstrates how you can deny the obvious of what He said?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
Neither did Jesus teach universalism.

Matthew 21:31
“Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
 
I don't really know as it is quite difficult for me to assume the mindset of someone who has imagined the eternal torture of someone. Perhaps the idea of eternal torment attracts sadists?
I think you've nailed it. We seem to have quite a few bloodthirsty folks on this thread.

Much of this confusion in their minds could be rectified by them reading what the original Greek says..... and not some fanciful, dark ages concept of the Roman Catholic Church.

The literal Greek language does not support their fiction. Examples........

KJV Revelation 14:11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

YLT and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

KJV [Matthew 18:8] Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

YLT 'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.

KJV [Mark 3:29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

YLT but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

You may read the Classical Greek; Philo; Josephus, Plato, etc. and will not find (in their writings) where AIONIOS (adj) or AION (noun) mean anything approaching eternal. They speak of an "age"..... with a beginning and an end. If they write of anything eternal they use the Greek AIDIOS which can only be found in [Romans 1:20].
 
I think you've nailed it. We seem to have quite a few bloodthirsty folks on this thread.

Much of this confusion in their minds could be rectified by them reading what the original Greek says..... and not some fanciful, dark ages concept of the Roman Catholic Church.

The literal Greek language does not support their fiction. Examples........

KJV Revelation 14:11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

YLT and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

KJV [Matthew 18:8] Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

YLT 'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.

KJV [Mark 3:29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

YLT but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

You may read the Classical Greek; Philo; Josephus, Plato, etc. and will not find (in their writings) where AIONIOS (adj) or AION (noun) mean anything approaching eternal. They speak of an "age"..... with a beginning and an end. If they write of anything eternal they use the Greek AIDIOS which can only be found in [Romans 1:20].

"They shall have no rest day and night"

What does that mean to you?????
 
I'm a universalist.

"They shall have no rest day and night"

What does that mean to you?????
Here is the context:

[Revelation 14:9-11]
  • follow them, saying in a great voice, 'If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
  • he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
  • and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
It is clear that while they are being punished for their allegiance to the Beast they will have no rest for the duration. Pretty serious stuff.....but not eternal.

What do you think?
 
Here is the context:

[Revelation 14:9-11]
  • follow them, saying in a great voice, 'If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
  • he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
  • and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
It is clear that while they are being punished for their allegiance to the Beast they will have no rest for the duration. Pretty serious stuff.....but not eternal.

What do you think?

Yes exactly.. sounds like they're being tormented and not annihilated. It sounds like they're not able to die..
 
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