Rethinking the doctrine of "hell"

[Hawkeye]

Some seem to think the new creation of God has both a beautiful paradise for some and an ugly prison of torture for others. It must look a lot like Texas.

I wonder if this torture prison will allow visitors from paradise.

Well……if it does……they can all go see Phred from time to time.

 

[Runningman]

I think you've nailed it. We seem to have quite a few bloodthirsty folks on this thread.

Much of this confusion in their minds could be rectified by them reading what the original Greek says..... and not some fanciful, dark ages concept of the Roman Catholic Church.

The literal Greek language does not support their fiction. Examples........

KJV Revelation 14:11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

YLT and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

KJV [Matthew 18:8] Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

YLT 'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.

KJV [Mark 3:29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

YLT but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

You may read the Classical Greek; Philo; Josephus, Plato, etc. and will not find (in their writings) where AIONIOS (adj) or AION (noun) mean anything approaching eternal. They speak of an "age"..... with a beginning and an end. If they write of anything eternal they use the Greek AIDIOS which can only be found in [Romans 1:20].

I have noticed people telling others they're going to hell, too, but as far as Christian message boards go that's kind of normal. I've seen quite a number. A lot of "Christians" love to tell others how they believe they're condemned and then offer no solution to the problem. I say "Christian" with quotes because I am pretty sure there are actually shills who just come to boards, some paid and some unpaid, to sow discord and create diversions. I believe they derive a sense of pleasure and/or satisfaction out of believing a debate opponent on a message board will suffer in fire for eternity for daring to disagree and/or express a different perspective. It's sick and a tactic of the enemy to make the real Christians look bad. The real Christians are outnumbered.

As far as the rest of what you said goes, I am open to that. There are many examples where forever isn't literally really forever. Gotta be careful with all of these translations that find their source in Roman Catholicism. Protestantism is Roman Catholicism lite. If the church says anything it's best to take a good hard look at the Bible before taking any of it in. Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of this before seeking a church.

 

[Photine]

Yes exactly.. sounds like they're being tormented and not annihilated. It sounds like they're not able to die..

 

[Our Lord's God]

I have noticed people telling others they're going to hell, too, but as far as Christian message boards go that's kind of normal. I've seen quite a number. A lot of "Christians" love to tell others how they believe they're condemned and then offer no solution to the problem. I say "Christian" with quotes because I am pretty sure there are actually shills who just come to boards, some paid and some unpaid, to sow discord and create diversions. I believe they derive a sense of pleasure and/or satisfaction out of believing a debate opponent on a message board will suffer in fire for eternity for daring to disagree and/or express a different perspective. It's sick and a tactic of the enemy to make the real Christians look bad. The real Christians are outnumbered.

The greatest enemies of the children of God are from the world's church system.

As far as the rest of what you said goes, I am open to that. There are many examples where forever isn't literally really forever. Gotta be careful with all of these translations that find their source in Roman Catholicism. Protestantism is Roman Catholicism lite. If the church says anything it's best to take a good hard look at the Bible before taking any of it in. Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of this before seeking a church.

And if you make them aware, they won't care. They have their creedal idols to polish and serve. And that pretty much sums up what is happening on these boards.

Consider what happened when Jesus made these guys aware of their misguided ways:

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from himself for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God. John 8:43ff.

No different today. Same spirit of lawlessness. Same kind of people who refuse to acknowledge their own sinful behavior. The world's church system is overflowing with them.

 

[GeneZ]

Dang! This thread has turned into one big sloppy food fight.

When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s
delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty." Jeremiah 15:16

Everyone is arguing without understanding and being petty about.

Does anyone here wish to learn what the Word says about the dead in Hell?

 

[Photine]

Dang! This thread has turned into one big sloppy food fight.

When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s
delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty." Jeremiah 15:16

Everyone is arguing without understanding and being petty about.

Does anyone here wish to learn what the Word says about the dead in Hell?

Teach us, o Wisdom Master!

 

[Runningman]

The greatest enemies of the children of God are from the world's church system.



And if you make them aware, they won't care. They have their creedal idols to polish and serve. And that pretty much sums up what is happening on these boards.

Consider what happened when Jesus made these guys aware of their misguided ways:

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from himself for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God. John 8:43ff.

No different today. Same spirit of lawlessness. Same kind of people who refuse to acknowledge their own sinful behavior. The world's church system is overflowing with them.

It really was the same in the time of Yeshua as well. The religious establishment was sure of themselves, right in their own eyes, and entirely beyond correction. If Yeshua came back today and repeated what he originally said then it wouldn't be received well. People don't really know God, generally speaking, and we can test this by repeating what Yeshua said. It causes non-stop arguing. The church has replaced God and led a lot of people astray.

When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? When Yeshua asked this he didn't see to know. Questioning makes me think if he finds faith it will be slim to none. I believe the way is much narrower the entrance of a church door. Much narrower!

 

[Josheb]

Dead corpses weeping and gnashing their teeth?

Dead corpses giving account for every vain word spoken?

 

[Our Lord's God]

It really was the same in the time of Yeshua as well. The religious establishment was sure of themselves, right in their own eyes, and entirely beyond correction. If Yeshua came back today and repeated what he originally said then it wouldn't be received well. People don't really know God, generally speaking, and we can test this by repeating what Yeshua said. It causes non-stop arguing. The church has replaced God and led a lot of people astray.

Their god is their own creedal idol which is their true Lord which they serve at all costs - even at the expense of mangling the truth. And they think this behavior is virtuous.

When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth? When Yeshua asked this he didn't see to know. Questioning makes me think if he finds faith it will be slim to none. I believe the way is much narrower the entrance of a church door. Much narrower!

He said FEW would find the way to life. I don't think he was joking with us.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Dead corpses giving account for every vain word spoken?

So no dead corpses at all?

Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me
Isaiah 66:24

Or, are you actually suggesting these are LIVING corpses?

 

[Photine]

So no dead corpses at all?

Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me
Isaiah 66:24

Or, are you actually suggesting these are LIVING corpses?

Post the rest of the verse.

 

[GeneZ]

Here is the context:

[Revelation 14:9-11]

• follow them, saying in a great voice, 'If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
• he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
• and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

It is clear that while they are being punished for their allegiance to the Beast they will have no rest for the duration. Pretty serious stuff.....but not eternal.

What do you think?

God is eternal. He has no beginning no end.

Souls of men are given everlasting life. Having a beginning (creation) and never ends.


Souls of believers are given eternal life because Christians are having their life in God.
After the resurrection? God could transfer you into any time in the past, present, or future.
Because, God is present in the past, present and future always.
We have eternal life in God, but our soul and body is given everlasting life.

 

[Hawkeye]

God is eternal. He has no beginning no end.

Souls of men are given everlasting life. Having a beginning (creation) and never ends.


Souls of believers are given eternal life because Christians are having their life in God.
After the resurrection? God could transfer you into any time in the past, present, or future.
Because, God is present in the past, present and future always.
We have eternal life in God, but our soul and body is given everlasting life.

Yep…..you’re right. God is eternal. That’s why the only place in the Greek scriptures that uses the Greek word for eternal……(AIDIOS)…… speaks of Him.

(Romans 1:20)……..

All other phrases in most English Bibles that speak of Eternal, Forever, Everlasting, Etc.……..are incorrect translations. They have been inserted by early Catholic translators and unfortunately…….never corrected by Martin Luther and the Protestants. Do your self a favor and purchase a good Hebrew/Greek Literal Translation for your own edification.

(Romans 1:20) Look it up. This is the only time the Literal Greek New Testament calls anything…..eternal…….and it happens to be God.

 

[Josheb]

So no dead corpses at all?

Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me
Isaiah 66:24

Or, are you actually suggesting these are LIVING corpses?

I just asked a question. I didn't deny any dead corpses. You asked about dead corpses gnashing teeth, and I asked about their giving account for vain words.

How did you conclude there are no dead corpses?

Why pick Isaiah 66:24 and not something from the newer revelation?

 

[Photine]

I just asked a question. I didn't deny any dead corpses. You asked about dead corpses gnashing teeth, and I asked about their giving account for vain words.

How did you conclude there are no dead corpses?

Why pick Isaiah 66:24 and not something from the newer revelation?

Because he's dishonest.

 

[Runningman]

Because he's dishonest.

Your last reply to me called me a liar, now I see you come here and call someone dishonest. The fact you need to go around slandering people speaks volumes about your willingness to sow discord and division. You're good at that. That isn't a compliment.

 

[Photine]

Your last reply to me called me a liar, now I see you come here and call someone dishonest. The fact you need to go around slandering people speaks volumes about your willingness to sow discord and division. You're good at that. That isn't a compliment.

Coming from you, it is.

 

[Our Lord's God]

I just asked a question. I didn't deny any dead corpses. You asked about dead corpses gnashing teeth, and I asked about their giving account for vain words.

How did you conclude there are no dead corpses?

Why pick Isaiah 66:24 and not something from the newer revelation?

The "old" revelation has been nullified?

 

[GeneZ]

Do your self a favor and purchase a good Hebrew/Greek Literal Translation for your own edification.

Right here I have.....
https://rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

His teachings (free of charge) led to many reference books coming alive.

 

[Stephen]

That is not an answer to my question. What, besides being a false doctrine, is hell? What do you think is the purported "false doctrine"? This is important because if whatever you think is the false doctrine isn't the false doctrine then your entire thread is built on a straw man = arguing against a misrepresentation.

As a counterpoint to your claims here about me building my entire thread on a straw man, no participant in the thread ever asked me about specifics or didn't understand what I meant. Your fear about me building a thread on a straw man isn't born out by reality. I'm sure you can concieve of corner cases, but reality demonstrates that those should be addressed on a case by case basis.

I've got a bunch of questions for you, Stephen. You've just shown and ability NOT to answer questions asked. I've got a bunch of questions for you. Just answer the questions asked and not questions not asked. Help me understand from whence this op comes so I can address it specifically from your point of view.

Ask away.

What is hell (from what specifically is it this op dissents)?

As I don't believe in it, I have no particaular care about any "specifics". That should have been plainly obvious.

The CARM explanation is sufficient for discussion. https://carm.org/christianity/what-is-hell/

Why do the gospels report Jesus using that term?

The gospels report Jesus using the term because Jesus used the term.

What he meant by the term is the more important question. In most cases, Jesus uses the words translated into hell to denote a garbage dump. For a Christian to imagine he means some place not on this earth is simply Christians willfully changing what he says to suit their doctrine. It would be up to the believer in "hell" to make the case that when Jesus says this particular place on earth that he means another place entirely.

The other word translated "hell" is "hades" in the greek, and his usage bears no resemblance to what Christianity ascribes the word "hell" to. The four usages by Jesus that I can find are:

• Matthew 11:23/Luke 10:15 has an entire city being sent there. No person in this thread has defended the position that a city will be sent to hell, and it is safe to conclude that such a thing is outside the Christian conception of "hell". And Capernaum still exists on maps today.
• Luke 16:23 was addressed in the OP.
• Mattahew 16:18 The gates of hell are said to not overpower the church.

As demonstrated in this thread, nobody has actually bothered to defend their particular doctinre of hell with any of Christ's usages with the possible exception of Luke 16:23.




Was there any point in the OP you wanted to address?