Rethinking the doctrine of "hell"

No they are not; they have been resurrected. They have been judged and sent to the lake of fire . Death is in the lake of fire; it has no sting and can't make anyone dead.

No one dies in that lake of fire. Death has been conquered and cannot make anyone die.

Those were resurrected. It is appointed to man once to die after is the judgment. Judgement is eternal punishment since death has lost its sting.

Yep. NOWHERE does it ever say people die in the lake of fire.

Anyone who says that is just making stuff up.
 
No they are not; they have been resurrected. They have been judged and sent to the lake of fire . Death is in the lake of fire; it has no sting and can't make anyone dead.

No one dies in that lake of fire. Death has been conquered and cannot make anyone die.

Those were resurrected. It is appointed to man once to die after is the judgment. Judgement is eternal punishment since death has lost its sting.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. If I understand your claims correctly::
  • People aren't destroyed when they are thrown into the lake of fire in contradiction to all available evidence where persons have been thrown into furnaces.
  • Those rejected at the judgment seat don't die, instead they have eternal life.
  • The second death isn't actually death and is completely misnamed, but rather is the point in your existence where you are given eternal life.
  • The gift of eternal life to those whose names are NOT in the lamb's book of life.

I'm pretty sure I have your claims correct based on your responses.

And based on that, why would you want to be found in the lamb's book of life?
 
I'm trying to understand what you are saying. If I understand your claims correctly::
You should try to understand the scripture.
  • People aren't destroyed when they are thrown into the lake of fire in contradiction to all available evidence where persons have been thrown into furnaces.
That depends on what you want "destroyed" to mean. In an auto accident a vehicle is totally destroyed but it is still there before your eyes. In a fire a house is totally destroyed, but it is there before your eyes albeit in a different form. The fact that death has no more power in the lake of fire is crucial to your understanding.
  • Those rejected at the judgment seat don't die, instead they have eternal life.
Death lost its power and was thrown into the lake of fire. How is anyone going to die?
  • The second death isn't actually death and is completely misnamed, but rather is the point in your existence where you are given eternal life.
The second death is referring to a place...
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
  • The gift of eternal life to those whose names are NOT in the lamb's book of life.
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You are assuming that the lake of fire kills people but death had already lost it's sting.

I'm pretty sure I have your claims correct based on your responses.
Those are in the scriptures.
And based on that, why would you want to be found in the lamb's book of life?
Rev 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
I am not asking you to change; I am asking you to acknowledge the facts...Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

All I need is a verse saying everlasting punishment.Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Death has already been conquered.

You are making Jesus a liar. Is everlasting punishment everlasting or not?

You know no such thing. You think everlasting punishment is a day in Vegas.
I'm late in coming to the thread so maybe this point has already been made. If so....please forgive me.

I like to use a good literal "Hebrew/Greek" translation when faced with potential translation issues and the best (IMO) is "[Young's Literal Translation"].

YLT [Matthew 24:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Young's says this is a temporary condition....lasting for only an age."Everlasting punishment" should read "age-long pruning". The Greek word for an "age" is (aion)...... and is a noun. The adjective is (aionios) and means "age-long" or "age-during". This word has been mistranslated as "everlasting" in most English bibles.

Other passages where you will find (aionios) in some New Testament bibles will also translate this word in error.

There is only word in the Greek which means forever. It is (aidios) and you only find this word in Romans.

[Romans 1:20] for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
 
You should try to understand the scripture.

As you seem to be at wide variance with the scriptures, you can see the dillema. This doctrine of yours, by your own scripture citations, is absent the first 65 books of the bible and only found in a book of symbolic prophecy.

That depends on what you want "destroyed" to mean. In an auto accident a vehicle is totally destroyed but it is still there before your eyes. In a fire a house is totally destroyed, but it is there before your eyes albeit in a different form. The fact that death has no more power in the lake of fire is crucial to your understanding.

If ashes are a different form of a house, then you are simply a different form of Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. When something is destroyued completely by fire, is is no more.

Death lost its power and was thrown into the lake of fire. How is anyone going to die?

Death isn't thrown into the lake of fire after the millenial reign and after everybody has been judged.

The second death is referring to a place...
Revelation 20:14

Being thrown into the lake of fire, right before death is thrown into the lake of fire would have the same effect as being burnt in in an oven in 1942 or in 4,000 BC.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes, if you are one of the persons not gifted with eternal life, you will be cast cast into the lake of fire would result in your death. That is typically how death and life work, it is an either/or.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You are assuming that the lake of fire kills people but death had already lost it's sting.

Death loses its sting for those who have put on immortality, which is actually what Paul says. Paul didn't make a generic "everybody has immortality" proclamation.

Those are in the scriptures.

This part of your response is a non-sequitur. You didn't say whether I understoood your doctrine rightly or wrongly.

Rev 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It actually says "the smoke of the torment" is what lasts forever, not their torment.
 
As you seem to be at wide variance with the scriptures, you can see the dillema. This doctrine of yours, by your own scripture citations, is absent the first 65 books of the bible and only found in a book of symbolic prophecy.

If ashes are a different form of a house, then you are simply a different form of Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and Oxygen. When something is destroyued completely by fire, is is no more.

Death isn't thrown into the lake of fire after the millenial reign and after everybody has been judged.

Being thrown into the lake of fire, right before death is thrown into the lake of fire would have the same effect as being burnt in in an oven in 1942 or in 4,000 BC.

Yes, if you are one of the persons not gifted with eternal life, you will be cast cast into the lake of fire would result in your death. That is typically how death and life work, it is an either/or.

Death loses its sting for those who have put on immortality, which is actually what Paul says. Paul didn't make a generic "everybody has immortality" proclamation.

This part of your response is a non-sequitur. You didn't say whether I understoood your doctrine rightly or wrongly.

It actually says "the smoke of the torment" is what lasts forever, not their torment.
According to the Greek……it doesn’t say that.

YLT (Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages ; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

So the smoke does not go up forever……but it does go up for a long long time.

like I said in post #325…….(Romans 1:20) is the only place in the New Testament where the Greek says “forever”.
 
I'm late in coming to the thread so maybe this point has already been made. If so....please forgive me.

I like to use a good literal "Hebrew/Greek" translation when faced with potential translation issues and the best (IMO) is "[Young's Literal Translation"].

YLT [Matthew 24:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
In that case eternal life is temporary.
Young's says this is a temporary condition....lasting for only an age."Everlasting punishment" should read "age-long pruning". The Greek word for an "age" is (aion)...... and is a noun. The adjective is (aionios) and means "age-long" or "age-during". This word has been mistranslated as "everlasting" in most English bibles.
How long do you suppose an age is?
Other passages where you will find (aionios) in some New Testament bibles will also translate this word in error.

There is only word in the Greek which means forever. It is (aidios) and you only find this word in Romans.

[Romans 1:20] for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
This brings us back to the question of how long an age is. And if an age and age is specifically saying just two ages.
 
As you seem to be at wide variance with the scriptures, you can see the dillema. This doctrine of yours, by your own scripture citations, is absent the first 65 books of the bible and only found in a book of symbolic prophecy.
Your opinion is noted but it is not worth anything.
If ashes are a different form of a house,
Are yo saying the house is not turned into ashes?
then you are simply a different form of Carbon, Nitrogen, Hydrogen, and Oxygen
Nope.At this point my body is flesh.Man has yet to determine the composition of the spirit.
. When something is destroyued completely by fire, is is no more.
Now you are moving the goalposts.
Death isn't thrown into the lake of fire after the millenial reign and after everybody has been judged.
When is it thrown?
Being thrown into the lake of fire, right before death is thrown into the lake of fire would have the same effect as being burnt in in an oven in 1942 or in 4,000 BC.
Death had lost its power sir. Death onlyhas power to kill man once.After that is the judgment.
Yes, if you are one of the persons not gifted with eternal life, you will be cast cast into the lake of fire would result in your death.
It is appointed unto man once to die.You are referring to people who had already died. The second death is a place.
That is typically how death and life work, it is an either/or.
You die once.After that is the judgment. The second death is the lake of fire, no one dies there. The first death has no power there
Death loses its sting for those who have put on immortality, which is actually what Paul says. Paul didn't make a generic "everybody has immortality" proclamation.
Death lost itis power when all men were resurrected.
This part of your response is a non-sequitur. You didn't say whether I understoood your doctrine rightly or wrongly.
Only you and God would know that.
It actually says "the smoke of the torment" is what lasts forever, not their torment.
If there is no torment where will their smoke come from? Is that an eternal smoke coming from nowhere?
 
I'm late in coming to the thread so maybe this point has already been made. If so....please forgive me.

I like to use a good literal "Hebrew/Greek" translation when faced with potential translation issues and the best (IMO) is "[Young's Literal Translation"].

YLT [Matthew 24:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Young's says this is a temporary condition....lasting for only an age."Everlasting punishment" should read "age-long pruning". The Greek word for an "age" is (aion)...... and is a noun. The adjective is (aionios) and means "age-long" or "age-during". This word has been mistranslated as "everlasting" in most English bibles.

Other passages where you will find (aionios) in some New Testament bibles will also translate this word in error.

There is only word in the Greek which means forever. It is (aidios) and you only find this word in Romans.

[Romans 1:20] for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead -- to their being inexcusable;
The correct passage is (Matthew 25:46).
 
In that case eternal life is temporary.
That is not possible. Something eternal cannot be temporary. The Greek for eternal (AIDIOS) is not used in your passages.

I don't know how long an age is.......but I do know......an age has a beginning.... so out of necessity.....it must have an ending.
This brings us back to the question of how long an age is. And if an age and age is specifically saying just two ages.
YLT [Ephesians 2:7] that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

Ages (plural) that are coming.....would sure indicate they have a beginning....and an end.
 
Why to reject the doctrine of "Hell".

The stuff below is mine, but for more information, see the website: edit link violation

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It is difficult prove something doesn't exist when somebody imagines it is true. Such a proof is a form of proving a negative, however there are means of proving a negative. To do so, you typically show something isn't there when it should be present, I.e. absence of evidence is evidence of absence. For example, if you don't feel your car keys in your pocket, you have sufficiently proven the negative of the presence of your car keys in your pocket. Some people will however insist that this is insufficient evidence, but I would wonder how they function in life.

Similarly, the doctrine of "hell" is something people imagine is taught in the bible. It isn't. Like many things, it is taught by the churches, but it isn't taught in the bible.

First, notice that "hell" is absent in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes a material universe. Everything in Genesis 1 is tangible. There are no netherworld regions in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes the sun, moon, earth, etc... as objects, putting Hebrews thousands of years ahead of everybody else and when it spread to the gentiles, it advanced them as well. Genesis 1 describes the creation, including the heavens. Yet there is no "hell" or underworld described or mentioned. This is a serious omission if the doctrine of hell is a true doctrine.

Second, notice that "hell" is absent where it should be present in Genesis 3. This is the passage where Adam is condemned. Adam and Eve are promised a fruitful womb and painful childbirth, conflict between the sexes, work, and last but not least, the condemnation: "from dust you are and to dust you will return". They are not condemned to fiery torment, they are condemned with returning to the dust. The lie of the serpent is that if you sin you will live forever, the truth is that you will die. The doctrine of hell teaches that you will live forever, it is the same lie the serpent told.

Third, notice that the condemnation is consistent through the bible. In Romans 5, Paul notes that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. Death in the New Testament links back to death in Genesis 3. It does not link back to eternal life in fiery torment. In teaching of the salvation of man, the bible teaches that man is saved from death, not saved from eternal conscious torment.

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Regarding passages used to support such a monumental doctrine as a redefinition of death are thin. The primary passage is "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke 16:19-31 (Link). But look closely at the passage, this is a parable by Jesus, not a description of actual events. For example:
  • Heaven isn't mentioned in the passage. It speaks of "the bosom of Abraham". This place isn't defined in scripture,
  • Likewise, "hades" or "hell" place mentioned in the passage isn't described in scripture either.
  • These people are taken bodily. The rich man looks with his eyes, he wants a drop of water from a finger placed upon his tongue. These body parts rot away in the grave, they aren't carried away by angels.
  • There is a gulf between Abraham and the rich man, yet the rich man wants Lazarus to come visit him.
  • The rich man speaks and has a conversation with Abraham. Not with angels, or whatever else. He speaks to Abraham.
  • Abraham is dead and has not received his reward (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40). Abraham isn't in Abraham's bosom.

And of course, compare the introduction of the parable to the previous parable,

Luke 16:1 “There was a rich man whose
Luke 16:19 “There was a rich man who

Other than declaring it a parable, he couldn't make it any more obvious that this is a parable.

It can be argued that Jesus did not call it a parable, however only 11 of his 26+ parables in Luke are actually called parables. What the story in Luke 16 is actually about is in verses 14-15 Jesus attacks the Pharisees and materialism, and this materialism is why they killed him. He tells a parable specifically directed to the Pharisees, and for them to understand. Examine the characters and the story:
  • a Rich Man (High Priest Caiphas)
  • his Father (Annas) (High priest when Jesus was a child)
  • the sons of the Father (Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, Ananus) (also high priests)
  • who all were wealthy
  • were well studied in Moses and the Prophets.
  • And his promise to these men was that though one would rise from the dead, they would not repent.
The prediction of the parable actually happened. Lazarus rose from the dead and they all the more wanted to kill him (John 12:9-11) rather than repent. Jesus rose from the dead and they did not repent.

This parable was given to the Pharisees, not to somebody who has never heard of the God of Israel and his son. This parable isn't for the unknowing, this parable is for those well steeped in the bible. If this is a teaching for all mankind and the lost who have never heard of Jesus Christ, it is very much in the wrong place. It should have been in Genesis.

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In conclusion, the doctrine of "hell" is Pagan claptrap and should be discarded as a doctrine. The wages of sin is death (not eternal conscious torment), and the gift of God is eternal life.

God's gift is not eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell, God's gift is eternal life (period).
Thoughtful exposition.

Is it correct?

Tell me, tell us, what is it you think "hell" is.
 
That is not possible.
But the same Greek word is used in both cases. How do you explain that? You seem to be saying that one is temporary and one is permanent.
Something eternal cannot be temporary. The Greek for eternal (AIDIOS) is not used in your passages.
So your claim must be that believers have a temporary life in Christ.
I don't know how long an age is.......but I do know......an age has a beginning.... so out of necessity.....it must have an ending.
So you are saying that eternal life in Christ for the believer has a beginning, so out of necessity there must be an ending
YLT [Ephesians 2:7] that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
Days are also coming. Where is the disconnect between two days, except in your mind? If days were actually disconnected, then you would be reborn every day and end every night. You look at ages as segmented, so one ends and another begins. I see it as continuous, since there is no evidence of a day stopping for another day to begin. We are not reborn every morning.
Ages (plural) that are coming.....would sure indicate they have a beginning....and an end.
You assume that because of the time structure we relate to. Our clocks reset, but the actual days don't; they just continue in a cycle. Tomorrow is coming; you can make it start at 12.01 or 6.01. but in reality, nothing changes except in your mind.
 
Why do you think life during an age would be poison?
figure of speech.
As [Ephesians 2:7] points out.....there are multiple ages coming. Why would it be difficult for you to participate in them?
A day could be understood as an age. Where is the disconnect between two days, except in your mind? When does one day end and another day start? Have you ever seen a day stop?
There have been multiple ages in the past.
There have been many days in the past. I have yet to see one stop or start.
 
But the same Greek word is used in both cases. How do you explain that? You seem to be saying that one is temporary and one is permanent.
AION and AIOIOS (noun and adjective/age and ages) are used 179 times in the New Testament. They are used 12 times in referring to a type of eternal damnation or punishment. Those 12 examples are incorrect translations and appear in most English bibles. The doctrine of eternal punishment cannot be found in the Old Testament. It is New Testament fiction. In all of the stories of idolatry, sin and corruption we do not find the people of Israel threatened with the torments of endless punishment (burning in Hell).

This doctrine of endless punishment first appeared in the early Catholic Church and was successful in keeping the folks in line......and the collection plates full.

The English word, "Eon" comes from the Greek "Aion". Eons have beginnings and they have ends. They last a long, long, indefinite period of time. I would guess if you are being punished during an "Age"......in some cases it may seem like an eternity.

YLT [Matthew 25:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The reason the same word is used in both cases is simply because it means the same thing in both cases.

Some folks will be punished for an age (apart from Messiah) and others will live through an age with Messiah. This is not rocket science.
So your claim must be that believers have a temporary life in Christ.
They have an "Age during life" with Messiah Yeshua. Then.....a new age will begin. Do you believe those folks will just then be tossed in the gutter?
So you are saying that eternal life in Christ for the believer has a beginning, so out of necessity there must be an ending
At the end of that age (there will be many) we obviously will move on to the next......as folks have done throughout history.

YLT [Ephesians 2:5-7]
even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

Sounds to me like these folks are going to see multiple ages with Messiah.....not just one.

I'm sorry......I lost you on the rest of your post.
 
AION and AIOIOS (noun and adjective/age and ages) are used 179 times in the New Testament.
But you cannot tell how long an age is can you?
They are used 12 times in referring to a type of eternal damnation or punishment. Those 12 examples are incorrect translations and appear in most English bibles.
But you cannot say how long an age is can you?
The doctrine of eternal punishment cannot be found in the Old Testament.
YLT
`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.
It is New Testament fiction.
Do you consider the NT to be a lie?
In all of the stories of idolatry, sin and corruption we do not find the people of Israel threatened with the torments of endless punishment (burning in Hell).
Hell was not prepared for them.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
This doctrine of endless punishment first appeared in the early Catholic Church and was successful in keeping the folks in line......and the collection plates full.
Did you introduce it? Which one of those passages is false or added to the Scripture? Did Jesus say people were going into the fire, or did the Catholic Church say they were going into the fire?
YLT
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
YLT
and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.

The English word, "Eon" comes from the Greek "Aion". Eons have beginnings and they have ends. They last a long, long, indefinite period of time. I would guess if you are being punished during an "Age"......in some cases it may seem like an eternity.
Only in your mind does a section of time have a beginning or an end. Can you show me where and when any part of time stopped and was restarted? Time is only a concept. It is not a physical thing. It is only a mental construct.
YLT [Matthew 25:46] And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The reason the same word is used in both cases is simply because it means the same thing in both cases.
So in your view, punishment is not torment, and eternal life is not eternal. Is that correct?
Some folks will be punished for an age (apart from Messiah)
How long is an age? Does an age stop ?
According to your understanding, God only exists for an age...
YLT
and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
and others will live through an age with Messiah. This is not rocket science.
So they won't reign with him?
YLT
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'
They have an "Age during life" with Messiah Yeshua. Then.....a new age will begin.
Without them? Because there shall be no end to Messiah's reign.
Do you believe those folks will just then be tossed in the gutter?
Which folks? According to the scripture those with the messiah remain with him and his reign has no end.
YLT
and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'
At the end of that age (there will be many) we obviously will move on to the next......as folks have done throughout history.
You are talking about something that you have no clue. You cannot say how long this age is when it starts and when it ends.
YLT [Ephesians 2:5-7]
even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

Sounds to me like these folks are going to see multiple ages with Messiah.....not just one.
You are trying to segment time with words. The word "age during" is not a mystical word that makes time stop and restart. 60 seconds do not stop to restart to begin another minute.Those are just words.Since the world began time has not stopped. So for you to say multiple ages is just like saying multiple days, multiple minutes, or multiple hours. None is disconnected from the other. Time simply continues. It is everlasting. Not age during.
I'm sorry......I lost you on the rest of your post.
You got lost from the get go.
 
Thoughtful exposition.

Is it correct?

Tell me, tell us, what is it you think "hell" is.
False doctrine co-opted from pagan religions and grafted onto the religion of Israel.

which is why you rarely see an OT quote in any of these threads, and why of course nobody wants to talk about the OT, but rather talk about Revelation.
 
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