Rev 12 - Red Dragon/The Adversary = Jewish State

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member

Revelation 12:3

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

A. there appeared another wonder in heaven;

Another symbol appears.

B. behold a great red dragon...

...having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The dragon has very specific descriptions:

  1. This greatness is the real power that the Jews had fighting against the church. Had Christ not been her protector, the church would surely have been utterly destroyed by the Jews who hated her.
  2. Fire represents judgment. In Rev. 12:10 the judgment of the Jews against the Christians is false but it is still fiery, that is prosecuted with great determination and destruction.
  3. For consistency, red in apocalyptic literature is always a symbol for war (bloodshed). The war the Jews waged against the Christians was a bloody one, full of death. The red symbol is in line with the fiery symbol above.
  4. Similar to the “dragon” beast of Daniel 7. Represents seven rulers of Judea, the Herods who had real power over their people.
  5. Ten toparchs (regions) of Judea. Horns can represent individual leaders (Daniel 7) or ruling positions (Daniel 8).
  6. The seven rulers were kings, royalty. Crowns don’t necessarily mean true authority (sea beast) but that they hold the position of royalty. Under the sea beast we see seven heads (actually guide the thoughts and actions of Rome, the beast) but ten crowns (adding three ineffectual kings/crowns to the seven heads we get ten kings. Three of these were ineffectual reflecting the three little horns of Daniel 7). [Historically this is Galba, Othos, and Vitellius.]

Revelation 12:4​

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

A. The Dragon's Tail

his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: These are the stars of the woman’s crown (the only ones in the immediate context. Essentially the dragon was able to kill 4 of the Apostles (Herod killed James – Acts 12:2), giving them over to the whims of the Jewish people – who the Herod’s wanted to please but didn’t not really associate with on a theological level. [Historically Peter, Matthew, and Philip were also all killed before Revelation was written.]

B. The Dragon Stands Read to Devour the Woman's Child


the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. This cannot be Christ because Herod was not aware of his birth till after the fact. This is the Jews who are aware of the church (Acts 2-5) and are ready to persecute it (Acts 7-9). They do so by killing a number of Christians led by Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1).

In Truth and Love.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member

Revelation 12:4​

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

I have two questions to clarify your view...

1) When do you think Revelation 12:4 was written? (I think around AD 96.)

2) Does Revelation 12:4 refer to events before it was written, or after it was written? (I think after.)

In other words, was Revelation 12:4 historical or prophetical?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
I have two questions to clarify your view...

1) When do you think Revelation 12:4 was written? (I think around AD 96.)
I believe it was written in the early-mid 60's AD.
2) Does Revelation 12:4 refer to events before it was written, or after it was written? (I think after.)

In other words, was Revelation 12:4 historical or prophetical?
Before it was written/prophetical.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
But if Revelation was written in the early-mid 60's AD, and it referred to events 60 years prior, it would have been HISTORICAL rather than prophetical.

Correct?
I don't see that it references things 60 years prior (maybe you meant a different number?).

It does mention the third part of the stars, which in this context are the apostles, so that part would be historical, but the waiting for the child is the future part I was talking about. This child represents the Christian martyrs the Jews would kill before the siege began and took their focus away from Christianity.
 

Timtofly

Member
I don't see that it references things 60 years prior (maybe you meant a different number?).

It does mention the third part of the stars, which in this context are the apostles, so that part would be historical, but the waiting for the child is the future part I was talking about. This child represents the Christian martyrs the Jews would kill before the siege began and took their focus away from Christianity.
Do you have historical proof, the Jews murdered Christians in 70AD?

Most see the child as Jesus Christ. The Jews themselves are the children of Israel. That would be suicide, as the majority of Christians were Jews themselves. Revelation 12 does not mention suicide nor murder.

It does say the man child was the one who would rule the world with an iron rod. So historical going back to the birth of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12 when Satan is cast out is during the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Thus Jesus Christ is the Revelation of Daniel's 70th week in Daniel 9:27. Revelation 12 is the historical record of that Revelation from the birth of Christ until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet after Jesus Christ is already on the earth at the Second Coming. Christ and His 144k are once again protected like the young Jesus was protected from Herod. The Lamb and the 144k go away during Satan's 42 months described in Revelation 13. It is the same as Joseph and Mary away in Egypt, except the Lamb and the 144k are on the heavenly Mt. Zion until the battle of Armageddon.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Do you have historical proof, the Jews murdered Christians in 70AD?
I don't understand the impetus for the question. I also draw my understanding of the scriptures from scripture alone and, at best, supplement that with external stuff. What that means is that I do not need or care to use external corroboration for evidence when talking with others who believe the Bible to be true. If you don't, we can have a different conversation.

If your purpose is to address the date of the writing, I can do that multiple different ways that do not depend on answering the question you have asked. The answer comes as a result of understanding the timing, not the other way around.
Most see the child as Jesus Christ.
I agree that most see this. Faith is, thankfully, not a democracy.
The Jews themselves are the children of Israel. That would be suicide, as the majority of Christians were Jews themselves. Revelation 12 does not mention suicide nor murder.
Those Jews who became Christians no longer identified spiritually as Jews. They were dead to the law of Moses and their physical lineage from Abraham was fulfilled in Christ. The Jewish State is the dragon, and the faithful Christians who had been Jews were not part of that government entity (Herods, Sanehedrin, Priesthood, Pharisees/Saducees/Zealots). The first Christian martyr, Stephen, was a former Jew killed by a Jew of the State - Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee.
It does say the man child was the one who would rule the world with an iron rod. So historical going back to the birth of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12 when Satan is cast out is during the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet. Thus Jesus Christ is the Revelation of Daniel's 70th week in Daniel 9:27. Revelation 12 is the historical record of that Revelation from the birth of Christ until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet after Jesus Christ is already on the earth at the Second Coming. Christ and His 144k are once again protected like the young Jesus was protected from Herod. The Lamb and the 144k go away during Satan's 42 months described in Revelation 13. It is the same as Joseph and Mary away in Egypt, except the Lamb and the 144k are on the heavenly Mt. Zion until the battle of Armageddon.
Thank you for explaining your position on the text. I believe I understand what you have written.

In Truth and Love.
 

101G

Well-known member
Addressing the OP, not saying that you're right or wrong, but condider this,

Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of the Nation, Israel, the church in the wilderness)
Dragon = behind, or in a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power. (Satan is always in the background)
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, or angelic)
Sun = the Righteousness of God, (which source is in the Gospel of Christ)
Moon = the Righteousness of God, (which source is in the Mosaic Law)

OF A NOTE: keep one hand on Revelation chapter 12 and the other hand on Matthews chapter 2. "The Brith of Christ".

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars".

Please not: just because a vision is given in heaven, do not nessary means the event took place there.

appeared? this woman represent all of the nation Israel, who remain faithful to God, the southern tribes, (meaning the remnant). this women represent a church, but is Israel the nation, or the remnant, a Church?. YES, Let the Scriptures speak for themselves. Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". there she is, "the church in the wilderness". so Israel was a church, and by representation of this woman is found in the (the remnant).

The next key word here is, "wonder", meaning a sign was seen in heaven, but is the action or the wonder taking place in heaven, or on earth?, yes, on the earth. that wonder was a woman, see above, (that gave birth to a child, (flesh), without a man). in those days it was a wonder, (a woman having a child without knowing a man), just as the virgin Mary stated. this woman was clothed with the sun= the clothing of Righteousness. Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem”. being clothed in his, (God’s word), she have on his righteousness, the white garment. Israel had been washed white, meaning baptized in the red sea, (a corporate baptism). The red sea means something, washed in blood, (red). so Israel the church was washed in blood, (RED SEA), to have white robes, (a corporate baptism), red symbolizing the blood of Christ which was to come, (the Rock that followed them). the Moon at her feet = the Mosaic Law, a lesser light. Israel was walking by a dim light, the law. it was a lamp unto her, Israel, feet. Supporting Scriptures, Prov 6:23 "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life", now, Psalms 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. there it is, “the law was a lamp, (light) at her feet. just as the Sun is a greater light compared to the moon, so is the word of God, (the Gospel) is superior to the Law. The sun is, Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Verse 2 "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall”. and upon her head a crown of twelve stars = the place of honor. these 12 stars represent NOT the 12 tribes of Israel, for each tribe had a head, or principle person to lead. but stars here means “messengers”, and God, the Lord Jesus chose 12 “stars”/messengers who later became the 12 apostles, the foundation of “HIS” church, who he, the Lord Jesus is the chief cornerstone, to spread the gospel, as the sun spread is rays all over the earth. The sun, the Glory to come, shine in darkness which is her destiny, meaning taking the gospel to all the world. Supporting scriptures. Matthew 24:14 " And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come”. the sun is on her head, as Jesus is the head of the Church, for he it that light, and a city that is set on a hill, (above). As the prophet Malachi says the Sun of righteousness, in his wings is "HEALING for the Nations. quick summary, SALVATION by Jesus Christ... "his Body the Chirch".

for we all have put on righteousness in christ Jesus, supportive scripture, Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
Revelation 19:8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." and this is clearly stated by the Lord also in Revelation 3:4 "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."
Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

there is the clothing of the WOMAN in righteousness.

so as said keep one hand on Matthews 2 and the other on chapter 12 here.

PICJAG,
101G.
 
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