Revelation's "Coming" of Christ

Reformedguy

Well-known member
REV 16:

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Do you have any geological proof that every mountain and every island found on earth today has a history of less than 1950 years?
Do you have any proof that an earthquake of the magnitude necessary to do this happened 1950 years ago?
Dou you have any proof that 1/2 of the world's population died during the time you claim all of this was fulfilled?

I can keep going, but I will let you try to find the evidence for these three first.
This all assumes it to be taken literally.
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
This all assumes it to be taken literally.
If it is not meant to be taken literally then GOD is not true to HIs word because confusion would occur.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
If it is not meant to be taken literally then GOD is not true to HIs word because confusion would occur.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the

Who said it's meant to be taken literally?

What is the context of 1 Corinthians 14?
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
Who said it's meant to be taken literally?

What is the context of 1 Corinthians 14?
ISAIAH 46:

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
ISAIAH 46:

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Where does it say anything about taking certain genres of literature literally? Those are some glasses you have. You can see what no one else can
 

Tallen

Well-known member
I reject them, so that's all that's important, don't you agree? 😬
You reject them!?! What does that mean? I don't consider them inspired word of YHWH..., but they are certainly useful and valuable in determining teaching, history and the views of those of the Second Temple era. And we can clearly see their belief that all humans are the descendants of Adam. In fact, that's what all humans have in common..., they are propagated from him (Adam) and inherited his propensity to sin.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Well-known member
You reject them!?!
Yes.
What does that mean?
It means I reject them.

I don't consider them inspired word of YHWH..., but they are certainly useful and valuable in determining teaching, history and the views of those of the Second Temple era. And we can clearly see their belief that all humans are the descendants of Adam. In fact, that's what all humans have in common..., they are propagated from him (Adam) and inherited his propensity to sin.
They fit your need, in other words. Ted, do you also think the Book of Mormon is "useful and valuable in determining teaching, history and the views of those" of the mid-1800's? I don't. It contains too much error. So does the Apocrypha. It contradicts scriptural teaching. So how would you know what to trust and what not to trust? If it mentions a temple and archaeology has found that temple, then we have a temple properly mentioned in the text. But things related to belief and faith, we know the Apocrypha has errors, so to say "Look! it says all men are from Adam." Whoop dee doo. It teaches Purgatory and praying for the dead. I guess these last two are "useful and valuable in determining teaching."

On the other hand, they are useful story books. Just like the Gnostic Gospels. Story books, not theological support.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
That would be the Apostle John at the point in time that he was shown the events of and recorded in the Book of Revelation. This prophecy was fulfilled circa 90-95AD.

You are assuming 90-95 AD based on one Church Father who was at least 100 years removed from John... There is internal evidence within Revelation that leads to a pre 70AD writing...
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
If you say so....There are people here that will ignore Scriptures that directly refute what they are claiming. For example:

ROMANS 11:
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

I'm not sure who you mean... Could you identify them?

Here let me help you with some more scriptures that make all believers one people of God...

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Take a special look at verse 9...
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Brought Near by His Blood

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
REV 16:

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Do you have any geological proof that every mountain and every island found on earth today has a history of less than 1950 years?
Do you have any proof that an earthquake of the magnitude necessary to do this happened 1950 years ago?
Dou you have any proof that 1/2 of the world's population died during the time you claim all of this was fulfilled?

I can keep going, but I will let you try to find the evidence for these three first.

Your problem is wooden literalism... Your hermeneutic leads you astray here. Before you throw stones, I willing admit that none of our approaches is perfect... This is apocalyptic language.

Apocalyptic literature is a form of prophecy, largely using symbols and imagery, to predict natural and manmade disasters in relationship with the end times. Often the symbols and imagery involved strike readers as strange.

The use of this kind of language is meant to shake us from complacency, to see the bigger picture, and make us aware of our mortality so that we take appropriate and immediate action in lives.

I will have to do some research. There are many examples of fulfilled prophecy where the same types of things were spoken, like curved roads being straightened and mountains flattened... But the roads were not truly straightened nor the mountains flattened...
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
I'm not sure who you mean... Could you identify them?

Here let me help you with some more scriptures that make all believers one people of God...


6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Take a special look at verse 9...
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Brought Near by His Blood

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
This is not what I was questioning. I absolutely believe these statements. ROMANS 11:24 is referring to gentiles. Jesus came to save and offer the Kingdom to the Jews, not the Gentiles. HE even went so far as to tell His disciples not to go to the gentiles but to the Jews. All of the OT is about the Jews.

Romans 9:6
New King James Version
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Not all Jews are called... The only Jews who are called are being grafted back in...
This will happen during the last Seven years in the Time of Jacob's Trouble (i.e. Tribulation period)

Zechariah 13:
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Yes; They will be grated into their own olive tree. Romans 11:24
 

leonard03782

Well-known member
Your problem is wooden literalism... Your hermeneutic leads you astray here. Before you throw stones, I willing admit that none of our approaches is perfect... This is apocalyptic language.

Apocalyptic literature is a form of prophecy, largely using symbols and imagery, to predict natural and manmade disasters in relationship with the end times. Often the symbols and imagery involved strike readers as strange.

The use of this kind of language is meant to shake us from complacency, to see the bigger picture, and make us aware of our mortality so that we take appropriate and immediate action in lives.

I will have to do some research. There are many examples of fulfilled prophecy where the same types of things were spoken, like curved roads being straightened and mountains flattened... But the roads were not truly straightened nor the mountains flattened...
Given a choice, I will take the Word of GOD at face value rather than believe that HE would leave us guessing at what happens next. As far as I am concerned, if it is written down, it is going to happen.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I will refer once again to this passage:
ISAIAH 46:
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Are you saying that GOD is limited to what HE can/can't do or what HE will/won't do based on the type of "literature" that is used to describe what is going to happen? Who's idea was it to write this book anyway? GOD's or John's?

I wonder where the term "apocalyptic" came from. Perhaps you can help me find out.
 
Last edited:
Top