Rock star?

Bonnie

Super Member
From Anglican scholar J.N.D. Kelly The Oxford Dictionary of Popes (1986) under Peter, St, Apostle (page 5-6)

"The papacy, through successive popes and councils, has always traced its origins and title-deeds to the unique commission reported to have been given by Jesus Christ to Peter, the chief of his Apostles, later to be martyred when organizing the earliest group of Christians at Rome....According to Matt 16:13-20, when Jesus asked the disciples whom they took him to be, Simon answered for them all that he was the Messiah, the Son of the living God; in reply Jesus pronounced him blessed because of this inspired insight, bestowed on him the Aramaic name Cephas (= 'rock'), rendered Peter in Greek, and declared that he would build his indestructible church on 'this rock', and would give him 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven' and the powers of 'binding and loosing' ....

"[In the first half of Acts]...Peter was the undisputed leader of the youthful church. It was he who presided over the choice of a successor to Judas (1:15-26), who explained to the crowd the meaning of Pentecost (2:14-40), who healed the lame beggar at the Temple (3:1-10), who pronounced sentence on Ananias and Sapphira (5:1-11), and who opened the church to Gentiles by having Cornelius baptized without undergoing circumcision (10:9-48). He was to the fore in preaching, defending the new movement, working miracles of healing, and visiting newly established Christian communities...
But in the second half of acts, after Acts 12...who was the main focus? Who became the undisputed leader THEN?
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Your scholar is also committing eisegesis.
I'm not a protestant
None of those passages says that Peter was the formal leader of the apostles. Peter, James, and John were regarded as "pillars" (Gal. 2:9) of the early church
Have you read Galatians 1 and 2 recently?
Luke writes that Peter "stood up" and argued that a successor to Judas had to be appointed (appealing to the Scriptures). It is not recorded that he made any decision or had the final say, but merely that "they nominated two men" and that "they cast lots." They thereby put the decision into the hands of God.
You see Peter, but you ignore Peter....

I like this verse --

Proverbs 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Are you fighting with Kelly?
No. But did you not see what I highlighted from what you quoted from him? "[In the FIRST HALF of Acts]...Peter was the undisputed leader of the youthful church.[/quote]

In the FIRST HALF of Acts. Who then becomes the focus in the second half?

I simply noted that after Acts 13 or so, except for Acts 15, Paul then becomes the main focus of Acts and shows great leadership in the church peopled mostly by Gentiles, in the Roman Empire.

It is simple observation. Look it up.
 

Johan

Well-known member
Have you read Galatians 1 and 2 recently?
Yes, I have. Galatians 2 contains a harsh rebuke of your "pope." The entire epistle is a devastating refutation of works righteousness and was of great importance to the Reformation.
You see Peter, but you ignore Peter....
I see Peter, but my eyes are focused on Christ. Peter was nothing more or less than an apostle of Christ. Christ alone is the head of the church. We are His body.
I like this verse --

Proverbs 16:33

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.
Indeed, no "ex cathedra" in sight.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Yes, I have. Galatians 2 contains a harsh rebuke of your "pope."
you seem to have a bad memory of Paul .... snip Timothy, shave heads --

back to Galatians 1 and 2.... you haven't noticed yet? 🕖
I see Peter, but my eyes are focused on Christ.
You need to use more than your eyes Johan.... start listening 👂

Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to ME. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
Peter was nothing more or less than an apostle of Christ.
The leader that Christ put in charge.... carry on
 

Bonnie

Super Member
you seem to have a bad memory of Paul .... snip Timothy, shave heads --

back to Galatians 1 and 2.... you haven't noticed yet? 🕖
Paul said he he rebuked Peter to his face for his hypocrisy. Then spent most if Galations explaining about salvation.
You need to use more than your eyes Johan.... start listening 👂




Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to ME. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

The leader that Christ put in charge.... carry on
No, YOU need to start listening and reading in context.

In Luke 10:16, Jesus was talking to the 72 men He sent out to spread the good news about the kingdom of God being near. Not to Peter. Were they all popes?
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Paul said he he rebuked Peter to his face for his hypocrisy.
more proof of the leader Peter
In Luke 10:16, Jesus was talking to the 72 men He sent out to spread the good news about the kingdom of God being near.
excellent Bonnie (y)
Were they all popes?
Why would you think they are all popes? 😞

Who knows, maybe Linus [2 Tim4:21] and Clement [Phil 4:2-3] were there. :unsure:🤔
 

Bonnie

Super Member

Bonnie

Super Member
Do you even know what logic I am using?

Yes. Do you know MINE?
and yet you made the assumption

Where? About the verse you quoted? If you were not implying it was directed to Peter, then why quote it?
yep... so Clement and Linus may have been there
Emphasis on MAY BE. We don't know. But it is foolish to base history and/or doctrines on "maybes."

Now, how about dealing with my questions and quotes in post 104? About faith and works and salvation? And did you read the sermon I linked to in my post?
 

Johan

Well-known member
you seem to have a bad memory of Paul .... snip Timothy, shave heads --
Your attempts at smearing Paul will not do you any good. He explicitly writes that Peter "stood condemned" and that he "did not act in line with the Gospel." The least one could expect from a Christian leader is that he adheres to the Gospel.
You need to use more than your eyes Johan.... start listening 👂
"But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice." (John 10:5) The demonic voice of the Catholic "church" is indeed the voice of a malicious stranger.
Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to ME. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! (Gal. 1:8) Peter did not act in line with the Gospel, and it would have been detrimental to listen to him when he was spiritually confused.
The leader that Christ put in charge.... carry on
The only true leader of the church is Christ Himself.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Your attempts at smearing Paul will not do you any good. He explicitly writes that Peter "stood condemned" and that he "did not act in line with the Gospel." The least one could expect from a Christian leader is that he adheres to the Gospel.
are you perfect?
"But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice." (John 10:5) The demonic voice of the Catholic "church" is indeed the voice of a malicious stranger.
I didn't say to listen to demonic voices.... listen to His Church
The only true leader of the church is Christ Himself.
Indeed.... why is it so difficult to follow His Church?
 

Johan

Well-known member
are you perfect?
Way to go to defend your non-leader. I fully admit that I am by no means perfect. That is why I subscribe to the notion of simul justus et peccator. But Peter was not merely "imperfect." He deviated from the Gospel. Rather than acting as a true leader of God's church, he behaved like a drunkard, intoxicated by the spiritual drug called legalism. He had to be awakened and corrected. We all make mistakes. But to preach another gospel than the one delivered to mankind through Christ is a perilous mistake. No true Christian leader does that.
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
Way to go to defend your non-leader.
who is my non-leader?
I fully admit that I am by no means perfect.
good Johan
Peter was not merely "imperfect." He deviated from the Gospel. Rather than acting as a true leader of God's church, he behaved like a drunkard, intoxicated by the spiritual drug called legalism. He had to be awakened and corrected. We all make mistakes. But to preach another gospel than the one delivered to mankind through Christ is a perilous mistake. No true Christian leader does that.
Wow.... Peter and Paul were in the same sinking boat but you focus on Peter alone.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Show us the verse where Peter says my successors will ignore sin, harm the sheep and allow children to be abused.
Arch this shows the fact that you have no idea about the apostles and their beliefs. You laugh at the evil your institution has done for centuries. The harming of the sheep is not a new thing. You fail to answer my questions because you know that no apostle would do what your leaders have done.
 
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