Roe vs Wade benefits everybody

Please define murder.
The law - and I - define it as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

In order to be considered murder, a thing must be illegal, and abortion does not qualify, so your definition of murder must not be the same - what is it?

...
Laws are made by sinful men - the laws they make can be either align with God's Word or against it. That is why Christians from the very beginning of the Church up until today believe in civil disobedience to laws that are contrary to the laws of God - "we must obey God rather than man."

Taking your definition of murder, you must then believe the murder of the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust was not murder because the Nazis made the 'Final Solution' the law of the land. They tortured, put in concentration camps & murdered those who provided safe haven to the Jews. They commanded that those who knew of those harbouring Jews were, by law, to turn them in or they would suffer the same fate! But, according to your belief, because it was legal to murder the Jews & those who sought to protect them it was lawful??!!

Are you serious?! Just because abortion is 'legal' does not make it right - certainly not according to the Bible - there is no justification for the murder of the unborn!

In regards to Roe v. Wade, under the legal system established by the U.S. Constitution, the power to make laws is vested in Congress and retained by state legislatures. It is not the role of the Supreme Court to substitute the policy preferences of its members for those expressed in laws enacted by the people's elected representatives. The role of the judiciary in constitutional review is to determine if the law being challenged infringes on a constitutionally protected right.
 
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mikeT

Well-known member
Taking your definition of murder, you must then believe the murder of the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust was not murder because the Nazis made the 'Final Solution' the law of the land.
No, they didn't. They took steps to hide the holocaust from German citizens - something they would not have done if everything was "the law of the land".

In some cases, German persecution of Jews DID come from legislation, and as such, that persecution was legal. However, the classic things one envisions when talking about the holocaust - mass graves, poison showers, wholesale theft of Jewish wealth, etc - were not legal. They were done despite being illegal in Germany. More importantly, if Germany had a law making Jewish genocide legal, this law would not have been relevant in the killing of Jews from Poland and other countries.
 

When the Nazi Party took power in Germany in 1933, their antisemitic racism became official government policy.
There was a great deal of pressure to conform. Even if people were not antisemitic to begin with, Nazi leaders and propaganda urged people to hate Jews. Nazi ideas about “race” and the supposed inferiority of Jews were taught in schools. The government arrested political opponents or members of the press who criticized Hitler or the Nazi Party. They were put in jails and concentration camps. Few people were brave enough to publicly speak out or to help Jews, especially when they could be arrested or killed for doing so.
The Nazis used emergency decrees, violence, and intimidation to quickly seize control. The Nazis abolished all other political parties and ruled the country as a one-party, totalitarian dictatorship from 1933 to 1945. The Party used its power to persecute Jews. It controlled all aspects of German life. The Nazis waged a war of territorial conquest in Europe from 1939-1945 (World War II). During that time, it also carried out a genocide now known as the Holocaust.
In both Germany and occupied countries, Nazi officials required Jews to identify themselves as Jewish. Many complied, fearing the consequences if they refused. Some were forced to wear markings, like stars on their clothing, or to add the new middle names of “Israel” or “Sara” to their identification documents. In many of these countries, local citizens often showed authorities where their Jewish neighbors lived. Some even helped in rounding up Jews.
Up until 1938 and the nationwide anti-Jewish violence known as Kristallnacht, many Jews in Germany expected to be able to hold out against Nazi-sponsored persecution. They did not think the Nazi Party would remain in power for very long and hoped for positive change in German politics. Before World War II, few could imagine or predict mass murder.
By 1938, however, about 150,000 German Jews had already managed to leave their homeland. But after Germany annexed Austria in March 1938, an additional 185,000 Jews came under Nazi rule. Once Germany invaded and occupied Poland, millions of Jews were suddenly living under Nazi occupation. World War II made travel very difficult, and most countries—including the United States—were unwilling to change their immigration laws, fearing that even Jewish refugees might be Nazi spies. In October 1941, Germany made it illegal for Jews to emigrate from any territory under its control. By then, Nazi policy had changed from forced emigration to mass murder.
In Europe, the Holocaust was not a secret. Even though the Nazi government controlled the German press, many Europeans knew that Jews were being rounded up and shot, or deported and murdered. Many individuals actively participated in the stigmatization, isolation, impoverishment, and violence culminating in the mass murder of six million European Jews.


 
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Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Laws are made by sinful men - the laws they make can be either align with God's Word or against it.
Since I am an atheist, I don't care what you think your god has said.
Taking your definition of murder, you must then believe the murder of the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust was not murder because the Nazis made the 'Final Solution' the law of the land. They tortured, put in concentration camps & murdered those who provided safe haven to the Jews. They commanded that those who knew of those harbouring Jews were, by law, to turn them in or they would suffer the same fate! But, according to your belief, because it was legal to murder the Jews & those who sought to protect them it was lawful??!!
"Legal" and "lawful" mean the same thing, but whether or not the Holocaust was murder is irrelevant.
What matters is whether or not it was wrong, and I believe that it was.
Are you serious?! Just because abortion is 'legal' does not make it right
I never said it did - the morality of abortion is independent of it legality.
I don't think it's immoral whether it's legal or not.
certainly not according to the Bible
Atheist - don't care.
If your god has a problem with abortion he can do something about it himself, cant he?
 
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Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
We have, how come you cant see reality?
I can. The many flaws in your claim have been repeatedly stated.
oh I remember, your woke ideology is feelings based
That would be your religion.
Look the definition we saw, even used by your fellow ideologue compatriot Temujin, was
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Temujin was saying its not murder because its legal, although it is illegal in some places, so you are now saying its not a human being. Since when are the offspring of human beings not human beings.
It is not in evidence whether or not the fetus is a human being. You claim it is; you cannot demonstrate that claim.

Until/unless you can demonstrate it, it remains false that even where abortion is illegal, abortion is murder.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Laws are made by sinful men - the laws they make can be either align with God's Word or against it. That is why Christians from the very beginning of the Church up until today believe in civil disobedience to laws that are contrary to the laws of God - "we must obey God rather than man."
That may well be the case. That does not change what the word 'murder' means in English. And by that meaning, abortion cannot be murder where it is legal.
Taking your definition of murder, you must then believe the murder of the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust was not murder because the Nazis made the 'Final Solution' the law of the land. They tortured, put in concentration camps & murdered those who provided safe haven to the Jews. They commanded that those who knew of those harbouring Jews were, by law, to turn them in or they would suffer the same fate! But, according to your belief, because it was legal to murder the Jews & those who sought to protect them it was lawful??!!
You are wrong here as a matter of fact. The murder of the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust was not legal. The Nazis never made it legal, they never even tried. They simply ignored the law and, since they were the government, nobody could challenge them. It was and remains murder (again) by definition.
Are you serious?! Just because abortion is 'legal' does not make it right - certainly not according to the Bible - there is no justification for the murder of the unborn!
The usual strawman thrown out by the right. Whether or not abortion is legal has nothing to do with whether or not it is moral. Nobody says "it's moral because it is legal." That is a completely dishonest invention by pro-lifers. We note that it is not murder to correct the many pro-lifers who falsely claim that it it is.
In regards to Roe v. Wade, under the legal system established by the U.S. Constitution, the power to make laws is vested in Congress and retained by state legislatures. It is not the role of the Supreme Court to substitute the policy preferences of its members for those expressed in laws enacted by the people's elected representatives. The role of the judiciary in constitutional review is to determine if the law being challenged infringes on a constitutionally protected right.
None of which anybody disagrees with.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member

When the Nazi Party took power in Germany in 1933, their antisemitic racism became official government policy.
There was a great deal of pressure to conform. Even if people were not antisemitic to begin with, Nazi leaders and propaganda urged people to hate Jews. Nazi ideas about “race” and the supposed inferiority of Jews were taught in schools. The government arrested political opponents or members of the press who criticized Hitler or the Nazi Party. They were put in jails and concentration camps. Few people were brave enough to publicly speak out or to help Jews, especially when they could be arrested or killed for doing so.
The Nazis used emergency decrees, violence, and intimidation to quickly seize control. The Nazis abolished all other political parties and ruled the country as a one-party, totalitarian dictatorship from 1933 to 1945. The Party used its power to persecute Jews. It controlled all aspects of German life. The Nazis waged a war of territorial conquest in Europe from 1939-1945 (World War II). During that time, it also carried out a genocide now known as the Holocaust.
In both Germany and occupied countries, Nazi officials required Jews to identify themselves as Jewish. Many complied, fearing the consequences if they refused. Some were forced to wear markings, like stars on their clothing, or to add the new middle names of “Israel” or “Sara” to their identification documents. In many of these countries, local citizens often showed authorities where their Jewish neighbors lived. Some even helped in rounding up Jews.
Up until 1938 and the nationwide anti-Jewish violence known as Kristallnacht, many Jews in Germany expected to be able to hold out against Nazi-sponsored persecution. They did not think the Nazi Party would remain in power for very long and hoped for positive change in German politics. Before World War II, few could imagine or predict mass murder.
By 1938, however, about 150,000 German Jews had already managed to leave their homeland. But after Germany annexed Austria in March 1938, an additional 185,000 Jews came under Nazi rule. Once Germany invaded and occupied Poland, millions of Jews were suddenly living under Nazi occupation. World War II made travel very difficult, and most countries—including the United States—were unwilling to change their immigration laws, fearing that even Jewish refugees might be Nazi spies. In October 1941, Germany made it illegal for Jews to emigrate from any territory under its control. By then, Nazi policy had changed from forced emigration to mass murder.
In Europe, the Holocaust was not a secret. Even though the Nazi government controlled the German press, many Europeans knew that Jews were being rounded up and shot, or deported and murdered. Many individuals actively participated in the stigmatization, isolation, impoverishment, and violence culminating in the mass murder of six million European Jews.


None of which states or supports your claim that the murders of Jews were legal. They were not.
 

BMS

Well-known member
No, they didn't. They took steps to hide the holocaust from German citizens - something they would not have done if everything was "the law of the land".

In some cases, German persecution of Jews DID come from legislation, and as such, that persecution was legal. However, the classic things one envisions when talking about the holocaust - mass graves, poison showers, wholesale theft of Jewish wealth, etc - were not legal. They were done despite being illegal in Germany. More importantly, if Germany had a law making Jewish genocide legal, this law would not have been relevant in the killing of Jews from Poland and other countries.
Yes that there was not much written legislation but there was no chance of any legal action against the Nazis for doing it.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
You are wrong here as a matter of fact. The murder of the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust was not legal. The Nazis never made it legal, they never even tried. They simply ignored the law and, since they were the government, nobody could challenge them. It was and remains murder (again) by definition.
If it were legal, it wouldn't have had to be done in secret.

The Nuremburg Laws stopped just short of condoning the killing of "undersirables".
 

BMS

Well-known member
If it were legal, it wouldn't have had to be done in secret.

The Nuremburg Laws stopped just short of condoning the killing of "undersirables".
Many more 'undesirables' were killed by the Marxist regimes of Stalin and Mao than the fascist regimes of Hitler and Pinochet. Your ideology is cultural marxist so we are all concerned.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Because until you can understand biological sex you wont understand what abortion is.
lol now you claim that I don't even understand what abortion is? How ridiculous. Fortunately, I understand biological sex and understand what abortion is.

Your ideology is based on feelings and not observable evidence and reality
nwrt this sort of nonsense.

They are crucial, you just refuse to acknowledge it. you guys were told as soon as the gender identity ideology reared its ugly lying head that it was a deal breaker and would break down communication. Now you are complaining about it. Tough. Until we can agree on what a man and a woman is, we cant discuss things like abortion that apply to women.
They are not crucial in the discussions into which you invariably drag them. Any communication difficulties are entirely on your side. The rest of us having no problem communicating at all.

And as for "we can't discuss things like abortion that apply to women"...do you even read what you type? There are thousands - tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of posts on this forum, no doubt millions of posts and discussions in other formats around the world, of us (i.e., liberals and conservatives) discussing abortion. The claim that "we can't discuss things like abortion" is obvious nonsense, because we do precisely that. Which you know because if you really thought that we can't discuss abortion, you wouldn't try to. Yet you repeatedly do.
 

BMS

Well-known member
lol now you claim that I don't even understand what abortion is? How ridiculous. Fortunately, I understand biological sex and understand what abortion is.
How ridiculous. No, I claimed you dont understand biological sex, which means you wont be able to understand abortion. I understand it and have explained it to you.

They are not crucial in the discussions into which you invariably drag them.
Since you cant define or recognise biological sex, as soon as you use the terms you drag them into discussions. And look what is happening.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
How ridiculous. No, I claimed you dont understand biological sex, which means you wont be able to understand abortion.
Yes, you claimed that I do not understand both biological sex and abortion. Both are false.

I understand it and have explained it to you.
You have nowhere 'explained' it or anything else to me.

Since you cant define or recognise biological sex,
...except that I can and do recognise biological sex.

as soon as you use the terms you drag them into discussions.
Nope. You drag irrelevancies into threads often.

And look what is happening.
You're wasting time on yet another irrelevancy? Surprise, surprise.
 

Yakuda

Well-known member
How ridiculous. No, I claimed you dont understand biological sex, which means you wont be able to understand abortion. I understand it and have explained it to you.

Since you cant define or recognise biological sex, as soon as you use the terms you drag them into discussions. And look what is happening.
That crowd can't even tell you what they think a man or woman is let alone actually identify what a man or a woman is. I wonder how they know when to pee if they don't consult a urologist. Maybe their moms with penises tell them.
 

BMS

Well-known member
Yes, you claimed that I do not understand both biological sex and abortion. Both are false.


You have nowhere 'explained' it or anything else to me.


...except that I can and do recognise biological sex.


Nope. You drag irrelevancies into threads often.


You're wasting time on yet another irrelevancy? Surprise, surprise.
All been explained by myself and others, one cant have different meanings for different words. Its a deal breaker. You made your bed now lie in it.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
All been explained by myself and others, one cant have different meanings for different words. Its a deal breaker. You made your bed now lie in it.
Nobody but yourself has tried to make this laughable claim - it's all on you, pal.

It's already been demonstrated to you that you are wrong. Huge numbers of English language words have different meanings, including contradictory meanings. Do I need to paste another list of such words?
 
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