Rom. 5

Theo1689

Well-known member
Since some people are trying to jump to conclusions based on a single verse in Rom. 5 ("proof-texting", "out of context", "eisegesis"), I thought it would be useful to walk through the chapter. Paul's epistle flows so well that it's difficult to start at a given chapter, since everything flows naturally and logically from the first chapter to the last. That's why I recommend that people read through the ENTIRE book every day for a month. I got this sugggestion from John MacArthur, who does this same thing when preparing for his sermons. He would recommend that you read Rom. 1-8 every day for a month, and then Rom. 9-16 every day for a month. And I would finish that off with reading the ENTIRETY a few times.

So a very brief review:

Rom. 1 - Jews have the Mosaic Law;
Rom. 2 - Gentiles also have the Law, written on their hearts;
Rom. 3 - The Law was never meant to save, but to convict us of our sin (Rom. 3:19-20).
Rom. 3-4 - We are justified by grace (3:24, 4:16), through faith (3:22,25,26,27,30,31, 4:5,9,11,13,14,16,22)
Rom. 4 - Justified without works (4:2,4-6), saved because our "sins are covered" (4:7).

Now to chapter 5...


Rom. 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Note that this entire section is referring to a specific group, "we" and "our" and "us", and it identifies this group "us" as:
- have been justified by faith (v.1);
- have peace with God (v.2);
- Jesus is our Lord (v.2);
- rejoice in our sufferings (v.3);
- God's love poured into our hearts (v.5);
- The Holy Spirit has been given to us (v.5).

This is clearly not referring to or including "everyone", since not all have been justified, or given the Holy Spirit, or rejoice in suffering, or recgonize Jesus as Lord.

Rom. 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Christ died "for the ungodly".
He didn't die for those who "did good works".
He died for SINNERS.

And many think this verse is trying to teach us "how many" Christ died for ("everyone"), but the preceding verses rule that out. He is referring to the KIND of people Christ died for. In fact, in the next few verses he contrasts Christ's work with those we might die for. One would have to be a hero for us to die for them. But Christ isn't like that, He died for the type of people who were ungodly sinners.

And He died for us WHILE we were ungodly. He didn't wait for us to "stop being ungodly", we were still in the midst of ungodly acts when He died for us. He didn't die for us "because" of our righteousness, He died for us DESPITE our UNrighteousness.

Rom. 5:7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

So Paul contrasts the human mindset ("we might die for a good person") with the Divine mindset ("Christ died for sinners"). And he repeats the truth from v.6 for us, that Christ died for us "WHILE we were STILL sinners". He didn't wait for us to "stop sinning". He didn't wait for us to "do our part". As Paul explains elsewhere, we were busy being "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13)

Rom. 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

These sinners whom Christ died for "have NOW BEEN JUSTIFIED by his blood", this proves limited atonement. If "Christ died for the ungodly" refers to ALL sinners, then they must all "have now been justified". But no, Paul went back to the same "we" pronouns from the start of the chapter, showing that he is referring SPECIFICALLY to those who look to Christ as Lord, and have been given the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our earnest, our guarantee (Rom. 4:16, 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:14) that we will escape the wrath of God.

Rom. 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Again, Paul is still referring to the elect, the "we", the one represented by the "blessed man" in 4:6-7. And we were reconciled to God "WHILE we were enemies", not after we "responded positively" in some way. And we were reconciled by the DEATH of the Son, not by our "acceptance" of the atonement.

Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

1) sin came into the world through [Adam];
2) the wages of sin is death;
3) since all men sin, all men die.

This continues to pose a conundrum for the Pelagian-minded, who thinks it's impossible to remain sinless.
Where does the Bible teach you can remain sinless?
And how would that not be a contradiction to Scripture (Eccl. 7:20, Rom. 3:19-20, 23, etc.)?
And where is this (apparently) still-living man, who apparently has never died, since he never sinned?

Rom. 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

Sin has been in the world since Adam, the law was only needed to formally convict us of our sin.

Rom. 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

"Death reigned". As Barnes describes in his commentary, death ruled a monarchy, which was universal, until Christ came with the gospel.

TULIP count:

Total Depravity - Rom. 5:14
Unconditional Election - Rom. 5:6,8,10
Limited Atonement - Rom. 5:9
Irresistible Grace - Rom. 5:10
Perseverance - Rom. 5:9-10
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

1) sin came into the world through [Adam];
2) the wages of sin is death;
3) since all men sin, all men die.
Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (KJV)

Here it is step by step:
  1. Adam sinned,
  2. death came into the world through Adam's sin,
  3. mortality (not sin) comes immediately to every man who's born,
  4. all men eventually sin because of their fear of mortality.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Since some people are trying to jump to conclusions based on a single verse in Rom. 5 ("proof-texting", "out of context", "eisegesis"), ....
....
This continues to pose a conundrum for the Pelagian-minded,
...

TULIP count:

Total Depravity - Rom. 5:14
Unconditional Election - Rom. 5:6,8,10
Limited Atonement - Rom. 5:9
Irresistible Grace - Rom. 5:10
Perseverance - Rom. 5:9-10
I agree; Augustinian-minded do jump to conclusions when they eisegete context in order to interject their theology. Such as the following which are not defined in scripture:

Totally Depraved; inability to believe the gospel.
Unconditional Election; before the foundation of the world before any had done neither good or evil, God chose whom would be chosen to be saved and whom would be chosen not to be saved, or passed over depending on flavour.
Limited Atonement ; Christ died only for those God chose to be saved.
Irresistible Grace; grace cannot be resisted.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (KJV)

Here it is step by step:
  1. Adam sinned,
  2. death came into the world through Adam's sin,
  3. mortality (not sin) comes immediately to every man who's born,
  4. all men eventually sin because of their fear of mortality.
I don't remember any scripture that says we sin because we are afraid to die.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
I don't remember any scripture that says we sin because we are afraid to die.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Fear of death causes anxiety and bondage which easily leads to sin. That's why the Resurrection is such an attractive aspect, if not the most attractive aspect, of Christianity. And without the Resurrection, "we are of all men most miserable" according to Paul.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (KJV)

Here it is step by step:
  1. Adam sinned,
  2. death came into the world through Adam's sin,
  3. mortality (not sin) comes immediately to every man who's born,
  4. all men eventually sin because of their fear of mortality.
Why must I die for Adam's sin?
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Fear of death causes anxiety and bondage which easily leads to sin. That's why the Resurrection is such an attractive aspect, if not the most attractive aspect, of Christianity. And without the Resurrection, "we are of all men most miserable" according to Paul.
Those verses... I don't think they mean what you think they mean. Fear of death does not lead to sin, it, as these verses clearly state, keeps one in bondage. So once again, can you give any scripture that states that we sin because of fear of death? You realize that one fears death because they sin, right?
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Those verses... I don't think they mean what you think they mean. Fear of death does not lead to sin, it, as these verses clearly state, keeps one in bondage. So once again, can you give any scripture that states that we sin because of fear of death? You realize that one fears death because they sin, right?
What happens when we are in bondage to the devil, who has "the power of death", through of our fear of death?
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Before you die, what happens when you are in bondage to the devil? Can you lead a sinless life or do you sin?
We are born in sin, so obviously not. I mean, David said that he was conceived in sin. You do realize that we are in bondage to sin, not the devil, right? To say that it is the devil that has power over us is to say that God had to pay homage to the devil in order to save us. Do you really believe that God has ever had to bow to ANYONE?
 

Synergy

Well-known member
We are born in sin, so obviously not. I mean, David said that he was conceived in sin. You do realize that we are in bondage to sin, not the devil, right? To say that it is the devil that has power over us is to say that God had to pay homage to the devil in order to save us. Do you really believe that God has ever had to bow to ANYONE?
Who said that God bows to anyone? He is in full control.

So you have the following verses that say that we were at one time in bondage to the devil, who has "the power of death", through our fear of death:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Tell me your interpretation of Heb 2:14-15.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Who said that God bows to anyone? He is in full control.

So you have the following verses that say that we were at one time in bondage to the devil, who has "the power of death", through our fear of death:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Tell me your interpretation of Heb 2:14-15.
I will tell you what it is not, and it is because it is not saying it. These verses do not say that we sin because we fear death. It says we are held in bondage through fear of death. One is held inside of a prison cell because someone locked them in, not because they are a thief. They remain in the prison cell because the cell door is locked, not because they are a thief. They were put in the prison cell, not because the prison door was locked, but because they are a thief. They did not become a thief because they are locked in a prison cell.

Did I confuse you enough? Once again, can you give any scripture that explicitly (exogesis) supports your contention that the only reason we sin is because we fear death?
 

Synergy

Well-known member
I will tell you what it is not, and it is because it is not saying it. These verses do not say that we sin because we fear death. It says we are held in bondage through fear of death. One is held inside of a prison cell because someone locked them in, not because they are a thief. They remain in the prison cell because the cell door is locked, not because they are a thief. They were put in the prison cell, not because the prison door was locked, but because they are a thief. They did not become a thief because they are locked in a prison cell.
It's not out of the realm of possibilities for someone to be confined in prison and to degenerate into scornful hate. Even more so if the jail master is the devil who prods and encourages evil behavior.
Did I confuse you enough? Once again, can you give any scripture that explicitly (exogesis) supports your contention that the only reason we sin is because we fear death?
Already did. Also, I never said that was "the only reason we sin".

Back to the phrase that started this discussion: "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

What is your interpretation of it?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Read Genesis where God brought in death as a consequence of Adam's sin.

Spiritual death is the direct consequence of Adam's disobedience:

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”” (Gen 2:16-17)

Physical death is a direct consequence of being denied access to the Tree of Life:

“Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Gen 3:22-24)

Both are God determined consequences of Adam’s (one man's) disobedience:

“For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:17-19)

Question:

Why were Adam’s children also denied access to the “Tree of life”?


 
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