Roman Catholic rebukes Leighton Flowers for violating Sola Fide

Septextura

Well-known member
Turretin on Arminians

The Arminians (who bring popery and Pelagianism in by the back door) have struck against the same rock. For although they endeavor with great labor to prove that they do not make faith the cause of election (in order to shun the odium of semi-Pelagianism deservedly charged upon them), still they do not deny that it is the cause sine qua non or the prerequisite condition necessary in those to be elected.

Yea, not obscurely can we gather that they proceed further and attribute a certain causality to faith, so that God is moved by its foresight to choose this rather than that one. Otherwise why would they say so often that election is founded on the foresight of faith unless they meant that the consideration of faith influenced the election of one before another?…

Moreover, they make a twofold decree of election: the first general, of saving believers; the second special, of saving individuals by name whom God foresaw would believe. They hold that no other cause of the first can be given than the pure will of God, but as to the second (although it also is founded upon the divine will), they hold it supposes the consideration and regard of faith, so that God is moved by it to elect one rather than another….

This, therefore, is the opinion of our churches—that election to glory as well as to grace is entirely gratuitous. Therefore no cause, or condition, or reason existed in man, upon the consideration of which God chose this rather than another one. Rather election depended upon his sole good pleasure (eudokia) by which, as he selected from the corrupt mass a certain number of men neither more worthy nor better than others to whom he would destine salvation, so in like manner he decreed to give them faith as the means necessary to obtain salvation.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Turretin on Arminians

The Arminians (who bring popery and Pelagianism in by the back door) have struck against the same rock. For although they endeavor with great labor to prove that they do not make faith the cause of election (in order to shun the odium of semi-Pelagianism deservedly charged upon them), still they do not deny that it is the cause sine qua non or the prerequisite condition necessary in those to be elected.

Yea, not obscurely can we gather that they proceed further and attribute a certain causality to faith, so that God is moved by its foresight to choose this rather than that one. Otherwise why would they say so often that election is founded on the foresight of faith unless they meant that the consideration of faith influenced the election of one before another?…

Moreover, they make a twofold decree of election: the first general, of saving believers; the second special, of saving individuals by name whom God foresaw would believe. They hold that no other cause of the first can be given than the pure will of God, but as to the second (although it also is founded upon the divine will), they hold it supposes the consideration and regard of faith, so that God is moved by it to elect one rather than another….

This, therefore, is the opinion of our churches—that election to glory as well as to grace is entirely gratuitous. Therefore no cause, or condition, or reason existed in man, upon the consideration of which God chose this rather than another one. Rather election depended upon his sole good pleasure (eudokia) by which, as he selected from the corrupt mass a certain number of men neither more worthy nor better than others to whom he would destine salvation, so in like manner he decreed to give them faith as the means necessary to obtain salvation.
Much better to heed scripture than the opinions of men

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

do the math

and forget Calvinist bogeymen
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Much better to heed scripture than the opinions of men

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

do the math

and forget Calvinist bogeymen

This dance is over.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
This dance is over.
As I stated

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

do the math

and forget Calvinist bogeymen
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Oldie but goldie.

I enjoyed this. It's an example of an expert in his field, being able to see the other Field's Contradictions; or it's similarity to the Expert's Field. This Catholic is an Expert in Works Righteousness because he promotes a Works Righteousness. I like to think that when someone gets something wrong about the Gospel, it stands out to me. Professor Flowers' Works Righteousness teaching stands out to this Catholic, and since he's an Expert he can easily explain why it IS a Works Righteousness...

This is also a good example of how someone who is very different from us like this Catholic, can be very, very helpful to us; and even make our argument for us better than we ever could...
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Oldie but goldie.

Utter nonsense which just assumes faith is a work

No different than claims we have seen here contrary to scripture

Faith and works are antithetical

Rom. 3:27 —KJV
“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.”

Eph. 2:8–9 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

faith is consistent with grace

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom. 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph. 2:8 —KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

and that video is worthless
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
As I stated

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

do the math

and forget Calvinist bogeymen
So were right then? God chose you cause you chose Him right?
 

Septextura

Well-known member
I enjoyed this. It's an example of an expert in his field, being able to see the other Field's Contradictions. This Catholic is an Expert in Works Righteousness because he promotes a Works Righteousness. I like to think that when someone gets something wrong about the Gospel, it stands out to me. Professor Flowers' Works Righteousness teaching stand out to this Catholic, and since he's an Expert he can easily explain why it IS a Works Righteousness...

This is a good example of how someone who is very different from us like this Catholic, can be very, very helpful to us; and even make our argument for us better than we ever could...

My thoughts exactly. Followed by a quote from Turretin for historic reference.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So were right then? God chose you cause you chose Him right?
Still refusing to understand ?


The word is believe

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”


Men are justified when they believe

Mean are regenerated when they believe

Men are saved when they believe

Are you ever going to address this
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Still refusing to understand ?


The word is believe

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”


Men are justified when they believe

Mean are regenerated when they believe

Men are saved when they believe

Are you ever going to address this
So you change your tune. First it was were chosen in Christ and we chose to be in Christ right? So God chose us because we chose Him.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
He can't believe that when he believes that an Prevening Grace makes a 'real' difference in Salvation before even his Free Will...
So far hes has used three different words, faith, believe, in Christ, 4 oops, and it all comes around to the same thing. We chose to have faith, we chose to believe or we chose to be in Christ. God chose us because we chose Him.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So you change your tune. First it was were chosen in Christ and we chose to be in Christ right? So God chose us because we chose Him.
I changed nothing I told you from the beginning the word is believe

for some reason you are fearful of using it

and avoid addressing what i stated

........................................................

Still refusing to understand ?


The word is believe

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

they are chosen on the basis of faith

as was stated

Men are justified when they believe

Mean are regenerated when they believe

Men are saved when they believe

Are you ever going to address this

or are you just going to keep seeking a diversion
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I changed nothing I told you from the beginning the word is believe

for some reason you are fearful of using it

and avoid addressing what i stated

........................................................

Still refusing to understand ?


The word is believe

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

they are chosen on the basis of faith

as was stated

Men are justified when they believe

Mean are regenerated when they believe

Men are saved when they believe

Are you ever going to address this

or are you just going to keep seeking a diversion
And you chose to believe right? God chose you because you chose to believe right? So God choose you because you chose Him.
 

civic

Well-known member
Still refusing to understand ?


The word is believe

Election is in Christ

Eph. 1:4 —KJV
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

Men are in Christ when they believe

Eph. 1:13 —KJV
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”


Men are justified when they believe

Mean are regenerated when they believe

Men are saved when they believe

Are you ever going to address this
Did your belief come by Gods grace or apart from his grace ?
 
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