Roman Catholic Thoughts On Spiritual Delusion . . . .

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Stella1000

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I was asking for a similar verse on tradition.
2 Thess 2 14 For this purpose he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

But what do you call the o.t.?
The Tanakh.
And Peter and Paul both recognized scripture as it was being written.
Even if that were so, the idea of the canon came from the post apostolic times.
And no, the rcc didn't write or produce a bound volume. The rcc wasn't around then.
We Irish descendent Catholics don't bother with 'Roman'. We just call ourselves Catholic. It refers to an authoritative body representing the universal Christian faith and the process that led to the Canon was just such a body that has continued to this very day settling on orthodox Christian belief.
 

Nondenom40

Well-known member
2 Thess 2 14 For this purpose he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.


The Tanakh.

Even if that were so, the idea of the canon came from the post apostolic times.

We Irish descendent Catholics don't bother with 'Roman'. We just call ourselves Catholic. It refers to an authoritative body representing the universal Christian faith and the process that led to the Canon was just such a body that has continued to this very day settling on orthodox Christian belief.
Where does 2 Thess say tradition is God breathed? It's not a parallel with 2 Tim 3
 

mica

Well-known member
2 Thess 2 14 For this purpose he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.


The Tanakh.

Even if that were so, the idea of the canon came from the post apostolic times.

We Irish descendent Catholics don't bother with 'Roman'. We just call ourselves Catholic. It refers to an authoritative body representing the universal Christian faith and the process that led to the Canon was just such a body that has continued to this very day settling on orthodox Christian belief.
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
what traditions did you learn by word of mouth directly from one of the apostles? or from one of their writings (letters) in scripture?
 

Nondenom40

Well-known member
If the God breathed scriptures tell us to hold fast to the traditions both written and word of mouth that surely warrants obedience to the will of God?
First, Paul nowhere says anything about what you call 'sacred tradition.' He is talking about what they were already taught by word or mouth. Youre reading a whole bunch of your own theology into this that doesn't belong. Thats called eisegesis. Here is A.T. Robertson on this passage;

Hold the traditions (κρατειτε τας παραδοσεις). Present imperative of κρατεω, old verb, to have masterful grip on a thing, either with genitive (Mr 1:31) or usually the accusative as here. Παραδοσις (tradition) is an old word for what is handed over to one. Dibelius thinks that Paul reveals his Jewish training in the use of this word (Ga 1:14), but the word is a perfectly legitimate one for teaching whether oral,

by word (δια λογου), or written,


by epistle of ours (δι' επιστολης ημων). Paul draws here no distinction between oral tradition and written tradition as was done later. The worth of the tradition lies not in the form but in the source and the quality of the content. Paul in 1Co 11:23 says: "I received from the Lord what I also handed over (παρεδωκα) unto you." He praises them because ye "hold fast the traditions even as I delivered them unto you." The

tradition may be merely that of men and so worthless and harmful in place of the word of God (Mark 7:8; Col 2:6-8). It all depends. It is easy to scoff at truth as mere tradition. But human progress in all fields is made by use of the old, found to be true, in connection with the new if found to be true. In Thessalonica the saints were already the victims of theological charlatans with their half-baked theories about the second coming of Christ and about social duties and relations.

Which ye were taught... (bold in the original)

This has to do with what Paul had previously taught them. It has zero to do with any connection to rc sacred tradition.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No kidding! That is how the Reformation happened and continues to this day.
Yes, kidding! That is what happened in your church for many centuries, and continues to this day! You church continues "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men." Like:

Indulgences, Mariolatry, praying to saints dead in the Lord, popes, being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation...the list goes on! None of these things is remotely Biblical!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Bu
But do you get that when Paul wrote that to Timothy, there was no canon of Scripture. He wasn't referring to the bible. That volume was the work of the body of the Church. I find that lots of nonCC's don't seem to realise this timeline.
But there were the OT and the epistles from Paul, and he was well aware that what he wrote came from God, unless he wrote otherwise. And Peter obliquely wrote that Paul's letters are Scripture.

So, why don't more Catholics quote Paul on here? And believe what he wrote?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Why was God only "pretty much decided" by the end of the second century what the canon was? When did He become fully decided on it?
God always knew what the Canon was. Discussing how the early church determined what the canon of the NT was is a bit off topic for this board, but here is some of how it was decided:


Post no. 361.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
There is a lot of pride in the statements together. In other words, your saying your works gives you an advantage over everybody else, that your more deserving because of your many works. It is boasting before God. Because your claiming your many works will get you into heaven without Him. That you don't need God.

No one is saying, don't do works. But that our works do NOT account for salvation. The rcc just can't stand the idea that God loves sinners so much that HE willing to let them off the hook, without them having to be good enough. But to simply believe that HE has done so through faith in the work of His son.

The rcc teaching is that works is about "what you will get" not because you actually have a love for God. But what is in it for you. God ignores all human plans of salvation, no matter how wise they seem to be, and ignore the best ideas of men, even the most brilliant of them. Our plans of salvation can not satisfy God's requirement for the penalty of sin. Which is why Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross. He paid the debt in full.

The way rc's speak, the "works" done amounts to mere words and actions learned by rote. If you are counting on your many mouthfuls of blood and flesh eating and works to save you, then Jesus is of no use to you. And you have fallen from God's grace, because you are counting on your works to save you.
Bless you A New Day! Holy Scripture has nothing but condemnation for rote tradition. Barren religious ritual, sacerdotal formalism, or liturgy out of a book are not the same as worship. Real worship, like faith, must engage the mind.
Jesus said, "But the time is coming and is already here, when by the power of God's Spirit, people will worship the Father as He really is, offering Him the true worship that He wants. God is Spirit, and only by the power of His Spirit can people worship Him as He really is." John 4:23.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Bless you A New Day! Holy Scripture has nothing but condemnation for rote tradition. Barren religious ritual, sacerdotal formalism, or liturgy out of a book are not the same as worship. Real worship, like faith, must engage the mind.
Jesus said, "But the time is coming and is already here, when by the power of God's Spirit, people will worship the Father as He really is, offering Him the true worship that He wants. God is Spirit, and only by the power of His Spirit can people worship Him as He really is." John 4:23.
God summed up how He feels by barren religious rituals etc in Amos.

5:21 I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.

RCs think they can celebrate masses with evil men leading them but God is clear how he feels about it. They are deluding themselves.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
God summed up how He feels by barren religious rituals etc in Amos.

5:21 I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.

RCs think they can celebrate masses with evil men leading them but God is clear how he feels about it. They are deluding themselves.
Yep, and I wonder if Roman Catholics realize, or even care, that rote tradition was the very error for which Jesus condemned the Pharisees when He told them. . . . .
"Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far away from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." Jesus also said to them, "You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition." (Mark 7:6-9)
 
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A new day

Well-known member
Bless you A New Day! Holy Scripture has nothing but condemnation for rote tradition. Barren religious ritual, sacerdotal formalism, or liturgy out of a book are not the same as worship. Real worship, like faith, must engage the mind.
Jesus said, "But the time is coming and is already here, when by the power of God's Spirit, people will worship the Father as He really is, offering Him the true worship that He wants. God is Spirit, and only by the power of His Spirit can people worship Him as He really is." John 4:23.

Thank you for your kind words. Through Jesus' finished work on the cross, the whole world is blessed. :)
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that we are not saved by faith alone, in the sense that the nCCs present it. Scripture teaches that faith without works is dead.
right; we are not saved by mere mental assent/ intellectual belief alone
If scripture tells that faith without works is dead then how can faith be alone without any works?
a dead faith and a useless fath is the faith of demons: (aka mental assent)
not a God -given faith


You Can Understand The Bible: A Practical And Illuminating Guide To Each Book In The Bible
By Peter Kreeft (Catholic author)

"A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief.
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder” (2:19).

But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief.
He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit.""


from Jimmy Akin on EWTN (the lead apolgeticists at Catholic .com)
re: Trent
Quotes

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it <Trent> uses the term faith in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says.
Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2).

We might rephrase the canon:

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by intellectual assent alone, so as to understand that nothing besides intellectual assent is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.

And every non-antinomian Protestant would agree with this, since in addition to intellectual assent one must also repent, trust, etc.

So Trent does not condemn the (good) Protestant understanding of faith alone.

"Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity"

if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone.
 
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