Roman Catholics Believe in 'Plenary Indulgences,' but . . .

[RayneBeau]

Correct: no one has a right to salvation.

That is so basic, I am surprised you would question that. As a Protestant I would think you would know this better than anyone.

But again, rompop, even though your response is what you are taught to believe in the RCC, it certainly does not comply with Biblical teaching (no surprise there!). In the gospel of John, the Lord Jesus taught that faith does bring the right to salvation: "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God."

 

[pilgrim]

These verses have zero to do with plenary indulgences, or indulgences of any kind. Talk about a stretch! This is one of the worst examples of eisegesis I have ever seen on here.

The Pharisees laid many man-made laws on the people, that came to be as binding as what was actually in the Law of Moses. These were often very hard to bear for the people. The leaders could have removed the burden of them, by declaring them null and void, but they did not or would not. Power, don't ya know....

So why didn't the people just ignore them? Because they had the power to bind and loose. The people were obligated to follow those laws.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you MUST be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

 

[balshan]

The above is what YOU said, the obvious implication being that we think we have to "add" works to salvation. THAT is what I responded to.

Going by what RCs post something else is needed but they never say what that is. You seem to be posting differently to your buddies.

 

[balshan]

Faith in Christ alone for salvation great and free.

Happy?

What about the pope, membership in my Church, Mary, Plenary indulgences? Those are all PART of what it is to be in Christ and profess Faith in Christ. Our relationship with Christ does not exist in isolation or independently from the other members of the Church.

All false claims of the RCC. There we have it, you claim faith through grace is all that is needed for salvation then you add the false claims and teachings of you institution. We can be on an island and be saved by faith, and that is all that is required. Being a member of your institution is to be a member of the bad tree.

 

[Bonnie]

Faith in Christ alone for salvation great and free.

Happy?

Good. Finally, the truth.

What about the pope, membership in my Church, Mary, Plenary indulgences? Those are all PART of what it is to be in Christ and profess Faith in Christ. Our relationship with Christ does not exist in isolation or independently from the other members of the Church.

BAADDD! You were doing so well, then you had to add THIS! So, it is "Faith in Christ alone for salvation" PLUS this stuff!

Show us where the Bible says that belonging to YOUR church, the 4 Marian Dogmas, and Plenary Indulgences are all "part of what it is to be in Christ and profess faith in Christ."

Show us where these things in the Bible are necessary in order to be IN Christ and profess faith in Him. I have been professing faith in Jesus Christ for my whole life! Not once did I need to belong to your church, believe those 4 Marian Dogmas, or avail myself of plenary indulgences, in order to profess my faith in Christ Jesus my Lord!

I will do so again! I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior and trust in Him only for salvation, great and free! I believe He paid the price for my sins and rose, triumphant, from the grave, for my justification. I am NOT a member of the RCC! I reject the 4 Marian Dogmas and think that Plenary Indulgences--in fact, ALL indulgences--are a false teaching from the devil himself!

Sooo, Romish...am I still saved?

 

[Mysterium Fidei]

Regarding salvation, it always sounds like, in most of your posts, rompoporg, that you are very careful of what you say, and how you say it, so as not to be accused by your Roman Catholic Church of "triumphalism," which is a very dangerous position to hold.

Absolutely, he doesn't want to present anything that smacks of "triumphalism", which is that audacious proposition that the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the one established by Christ the King, is superior to all other religions.

 

[shnarkle]

That is because Protestants are so stubborn and thick necked that the refuse to understand Catholic teaching on Faith and works.

Works are NOT "added" to Faith. Faith and works are BOTH aspects of GRACE.

What you've posted is quite clear, but it isn't that those who disagree with you refuse to understand your claims, but that there appears to be a distinction being presented which isn't clear at all, i.e. Paul's observation that it is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." He is essentially pointing out that it IS by GRACE...NOT of WORKS...etc."

So the problem is in resolving this apparent discrepancy between the claim that "BOTH" are aspects of grace versus works not being an aspect of grace.

 

[shnarkle]

The selling of indulgences is condemned for hundreds of years. No one is asked to pay.

And yet they are hoarded to raise their value among the laity. At least the church understands some basic economic theory of supply and demand. Just because they're not asking for money, it doesn't then follow they've abandoned the principle behind it. There are other ways to pay for an indulgence.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

What you've posted is quite clear, but it isn't that those who disagree with you refuse to understand your claims, but that there appears to be a distinction being presented which isn't clear at all, i.e. Paul's observation that it is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." He is essentially pointing out that it IS by GRACE...NOT of WORKS...etc."

So the problem is in resolving this apparent discrepancy between the claim that "BOTH" are aspects of grace versus works not being an aspect of grace.

That has been my point since I started posting here way back in 2006 when they still had the thread format!

In all that time, it keeps falling on deaf ears!

If works are done in Grace, how can they be anything but saving?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

And yet they are hoarded to raise their value among the laity. At least the church understands some basic economic theory of supply and demand. Just because they're not asking for money, it doesn't then follow they've abandoned the principle behind it. There are other ways to pay for an indulgence.

You know--you go from making an excellent point---where I think--finally--a Protestant who at least is starting to understand something-----to THIS!

It is like---for every three steps forward you take, you take two steps back!

 

[romishpopishorganist]

Good. Finally, the truth.

BAADDD!

Are you a goat or something?

You were doing so well, then you had to add THIS! So, it is "Faith in Christ alone for salvation" PLUS this stuff!

There is no plus, Bonnie. Why do you Protestants insist on turning this into an arithmetical issue? Works no more "add" anything than the Son "adds" to the Father's divinity.

Show us where the Bible says that belonging to YOUR church, the 4 Marian Dogmas, and Plenary Indulgences are all "part of what it is to be in Christ and profess faith in Christ."

Why do I have to show anything from the Bible in the first place? The Church testifies to this. I want to know why I should discount the testimony of the Church--as though the testimony of the Church is not trustworthy or otherwise reliable and authoritative.

Show us where these things in the Bible are necessary in order to be IN Christ and profess faith in Him. I have been professing faith in Jesus Christ for my whole life! Not once did I need to belong to your church, believe those 4 Marian Dogmas, or avail myself of plenary indulgences, in order to profess my faith in Christ Jesus my Lord!

You are presuming you are saved in the first place. You might very well be too--that is not my call. That is between you and God. The point is that you are presuming you are saved without believing in any of that.

I will do so again! I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior and trust in Him only for salvation, great and free! I believe He paid the price for my sins and rose, triumphant, from the grave, for my justification. I am NOT a member of the RCC! I reject the 4 Marian Dogmas and think that Plenary Indulgences--in fact, ALL indulgences--are a false teaching from the devil himself!

Sooo, Romish...am I still saved?

How should I know if you are saved? That is between you and God. God isn't in the habit of talking to me about His inscrutable will for people.

Heck--I have a hard enough time trying to discern God's will in my own life!

 

[RayneBeau]

In that case then, you must also know that because Roman Catholicism teaches that a [Roman Catholic] 'Christian' may lose his or her salvation, it argues that "not even faith . . . or conversion . . . or reception of baptism . . . or constancy throughout life . . . can gain for one the right to salvation . . . " and that all these are held to be only "the forerunners of attainment" toward salvation.

romishpopishorganist said:
Yes,

In that case then, you must also know that because Roman Catholicism teaches that a [Roman Catholic] 'Christian' may lose his or her salvation, it argues that "not even faith . . . or conversion . . . or reception of baptism . . . or constancy throughout life . . . can gain for one the right to salvation . . . " and that all these are held to be only "the forerunners of attainment" toward salvation.

RayneBeau said:
In that case then, you must also know that because Roman Catholicism teaches that a [Roman Catholic] 'Christian' may lose his or her salvation, it argues that "not even faith . . . or conversion . . . or reception of baptism . . . or constancy throughout life . . . can gain for one the right to salvation . . . " and that all these are held to be only "the forerunners of attainment" toward salvation.

You responded by saying: Correct: no one has a right to salvation.

Again, romish, you are believing in one of the most serious deceptions taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

The WORD OF GOD clearly teaches that faith alone does bring THE RIGHT TO SALVATION . . .
"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12.
Here's the undeniable difference. As you can see and read, the Roman Catholic Church plainly and consistently teaches your belief that "not even faith . . can gain for one the right to salvation." Those are NOT God's words, romish - for the sake of your soul, you now know the "real truth" from the mouth of God, and not the lies of the Roman Catholic Church.
Renew your mind with the Bible's clear teaching that by faith alone all people can know they are eternally saved because they, at the moment of saving faith, possess eternal life. You can know this too romish, by truly trusting in Christ Jesus alone for forgiveness of your sins and making Him your personal Savior.

 

[Stella1000]

The WORD OF GOD clearly teaches that faith alone does bring THE RIGHT TO SALVATION . . .
"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12.

The Word of God clearly teaches that those very children can also fall away from God.

Matt 24 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1 Tim 4 1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 6 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come 6 and then have fallen away, since they are crucifying again the Son of God to their own harm and are holding him up to contempt.

 

[balshan]

That has been my point since I started posting here way back in 2006 when they still had the thread format!

In all that time, it keeps falling on deaf ears!

If works are done in Grace, how can they be anything but saving?

Yes but you are the lone RC voice who says that, the others go faith and works.

 

[shnarkle]

If works are done in Grace, how can they be anything but saving?

If works are done in Grace, then they must be saving. However, how does one make that claim if Paul is contrasting grace with works? He says "by grace through faith....NOT of works...etc."

 

[shnarkle]

You know--you go from making an excellent point

Thank you.

---where I think--finally--a Protestant

I'm not a Protestant.

who at least is starting to understand something-----to THIS!

I'm referring to what the Catholic church actually states with regard to indulgences. I'm practically quoting it verbatim from the Conciliary documents of Vatican II.

It is like---for every three steps forward you take, you take two steps back!

I simply took one step forward, but it works out the same however one chooses to look at it.

 

[shnarkle]

The Word of God clearly teaches that those very children can also fall away from God.

Matt 24 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

The Greek indicates that it isn't possible to lead the elect astray.

1 Tim 4 1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 6 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come 6 and then have fallen away, since they are crucifying again the Son of God to their own harm and are holding him up to contempt.

This is a troubling quote. On the one hand it begins with "it is impossible" which at first glance seems to indicate what follows would be impossible, but then proceeds to describe what must necessarily happen if this were to occur.

Ultimately, I think it boils down to whether a right necessarily results in any sort of guarantee of salvation. If we look at rights on a very basic level, they don't necessarily translate into a means or the power to accomplish anything. Power always trumps rights which is why Satan's goal is power.

 

[A new day]

The Word of God clearly teaches that those very children can also fall away from God.

Matt 24 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

1 Tim 4 1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 6 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come 6 and then have fallen away, since they are crucifying again the Son of God to their own harm and are holding him up to contempt.

Give some serious thought to what you said here, because so much of what your institution teaches either can NOT be found in Scripture, or they go against Scripture.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

The Greek indicates that it isn't possible to lead the elect astray.

Then why do we need to worry about false prophets?

 

[romishpopishorganist]

If works are done in Grace, then they must be saving. However, how does one make that claim if Paul is contrasting grace with works? He says "by grace through faith....NOT of works...etc."

Paul is talking about the initial Grace of justification which comes by Grace through Faith alone.

The question is--once given the gift of Faith by Grace, what happens as a Christian lives that life of Grace through Faith? The Christian produces works in Grace--and because those works are products of Grace, they are saving.