Bonnie
Super Member
Where does the Bible teach about Indulgences, plenary or otherwise?
Roman Catholics Believe in 'Plenary Indulgences,' but . . .
- Thread starter RayneBeau
- Start date
pilgrim
Well-known member
In the verses I gave you.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
Oh yeah, that's right Roman Catholics have "faith" in mans-word that is totally made up in the man-made religion of the Roman Catholic Church. Thanks for reminding me!
Bonnie
Super Member
Where? I don't see anything about Indulgences, not a hint. Please point out specifically where Matthew 16:19 teaches indulgences. Thanks!
RayneBeau
Well-known member
Where does the Bible say regarding the keys of the kingdom of heaven, that 'whatever is man-made that you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose that is man-made on earth, will be loosed in heaven'? Chapter and verse please.
Bonnie
Super Member
That is what I would like to know, for I don't see anything in that verse about binding and loosing about indulgences, not even a hint.
Bonnie
Super Member
Addendum for pilgrim:
What you are doing here, pilgrim, is simply regurgitating your church's very bad eisegesis of this verse. Nowhere does that verse mention treasury of merits of either Jesus or the saint, to be used to obtain remission of temporal punishments for sins. I see zero evidence whatsoever in this verse for the teaching of indulgences. So, this teaching is entirely made up of whole cloth by your church.
Jesus paid not only for the guilt of our sins, on the cross, but also the eternal punishment they would merit.
pilgrim
Well-known member
Bad eisegesis is whatever Protestants came up with to explain "binding and loosing" instead of what the Jews knew that term to mean: https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3307-binding-and-loosing
So there is clearly more than a "hint" in that verse for the concept of indulgences.
pilgrim
Well-known member
"Pilgrim" knows that Jesus HIMSELF established His Church, filled it with His merits and graces, sent the Holy Spirit to guide it and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail. I believe His truths that He has revealed and commissioned His Church to teach.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
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Bonnie
Super Member
Sorry, but I see no hint of indulgences in your link or in the Matthew verse. Wishful thinking on your part.
I believe binding and loosing does have to do with forgiving sins in the repentant person, or not, in the untepententant or hypocrite. But there is not the slightest idea of indulgences in that.
And I do know the truth and it HAS set me free. And that truth is not in the RCC.
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No bad eisegesis is what the RCC leaders do when they change God's word. Nothing there about indulgences.
Bonnie
Super Member
I didn't think so.
I looked up indulgences on Wiki. Not the best source, I know. But the article is heavily footnoted.
Indulgence - Wikipedia
Nothing here about Jewish rabbinical traditions on binding and loosing being one of the bases for indulgences.
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pilgrim
Well-known member
I never expected you to.
I think we see how the apostles understood and used binding loosing in Acts 15:20 when they cleared up the rules for gentile believers in Jesus.I didn't think so.
I looked up indulgences on Wiki. Not the best source, I know. But the article is heavily footnoted.
Indulgence - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Nothing here about Jewish rabbinical traditions on binding and loosing being one of the bases for indulgences.
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
It was about disciplining of people and about making sure the scriptures were kept pure, so to speak. It was not meant to add burdens to the people or change the word of God by adding to it, or taking away from it or going beyond it.
We can see it cleared up the scriptures for the gentiles they could not eat the foods polluted by idols, strangled animals or blood or be seuxal immoral. They did not have to be circumcised either is another.
Gal 5:2-11
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. .
Gal 2:3
But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
I cannot see a single time the apostles used it for giving people indulgences? Why is that?
A new day
Super Member
Jesus established a body of believers, whose sole trust is in Him, NOT the rcc.
LifeIn
Well-known member
This doctrine is confusing to you because you are misunderstanding it. The doctrine does not say indulgences forgive sin. The doctrine applies only to temporal punishment, not eternal punishment. Temporal punishment means only for a limited time. We believe that even if sin is forgiven, that sin still incurs temporal punishment, either on earth before we die, or in purgatory after we die. And since you don't believe in purgatory, that is why the doctrine makes no sense to you. Even people who are saved have to suffer a while before they are admitted to the presence of God, at which time all sadness will be erased and their sufferings they will remember no more. All that plenary indulgences do is shorten that period of suffering - perhaps even reducing the period of earthly suffering. Here is more info from the Diocese of Philadelphia.
A new day
Super Member
The rcc has made a false claim in that it has the ability to remove sins and declare a person saved or not. It has no such authority. NO human can ever give or take away salvation from anyone. Or promise anyone eternal life. The only person who can do this is God. There is no such thing in Scripture of mankind paying for his/her sins before or after death.
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Scripture teaches us over and over to believe IN Jesus. Not just believe He lived and died on the cross.
1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,
Scripture calls it foolishness, to think that we can ever earn salvation by ourselves.
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?
Anyone who is counting on making themselves right with God, through works and indulgences; they have cut themselves off from Christ! They have fallen away from God’s grace. For Christ is of no use to such a person since he/she is trusting in themselves. This "cooperation" with God is NOT what He told us to do in regard to salvation. He said,
1 John 3:23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,
Believing in is more than just head knowledge of His life, death, and resurrection. It means trusting Him exclusively for salvation and eternal life.
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Bonnie
Super Member
I think someone would have had to be smoking something in order to see "indulgences" even hinted at, in that link. I read through it twice, and do not see them anywhere, not even a hint.
Bonnie
Super Member
I would see it just fine, if indulgences were in that verse. So, perhaps you can enlighten me and show me where there is any hint of them in that verse. Thanks!
You have 50/50 vision Bonnie.