Roman Catholics Believe in 'Plenary Indulgences,' but . . .

pilgrim said:
The body of believers is the very Church He established, not any that came about 1500+years later.
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Well that institution is not your bad tree, if it was the church he established it would follow what He did and taught, it would follow the apostles. It hasn't. You can say it as much as you like but the bride is not your evil institution that harms the sheep and has done so for centuries. Think if every human being is made in God's image your institution's has killed humans, tortured them, raped them, forced them to do things against their free will, abused them, are known for being sexually immoral, worst of all abused and molested children. What part of any of that is Christlike. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. What part of that do you think Jesus established.HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. It also teaches another gospel, maybe it would have been better if the leaders met the scriptural leadership requirements. But it is hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube so to speak.
 
pilgrim said:
The body of believers is the very Church He established, not any that came about 1500+years later.
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Baloney. ALL believers, from day one, are part of His church, from before and after 1500.

I am sorry you believe your church's lies that Jesus established YOUR church, the RCC. I am also sorry you believe its lies about Luther. May you some day stop resisting the HS and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free.
 
Bonnie said:
Baloney. ALL believers, from day one, are part of His church, from before and after 1500.

I am sorry you believe your church's lies that Jesus established YOUR church, the RCC. I am also sorry you believe its lies about Luther. May you some day stop resisting the HS and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free.
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I wonder which actual words in scripture as one RC likes to say, shows where Jesus said to be part of the bride one must be a baptized RC and follow the pope even when they are wrong when speaking excathedra and you will follow the RC leaders even when they are sexually immoral and to follow those leaders even when they teach Marian doctrines. I mean they demand the actual/exact words from us for our beliefs.
 
pilgrim said:
The body of believers is the very Church He established, not any that came about 1500+years later.
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From all the rc posts as a whole, since I started here on carm. The rc's faith and trust is solely in an institution, not in Christ.

The apostles were NOT commanded to build churches and reign over people as imperial rome did. The apostles where commanded to preach the gospel message.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

John 15:27
And you also must testify, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

The apostles were chosen to testify that which they had seen and heard during the time they spent with Jesus.

There are NO Scriptures commanding for the apostles to demand others look to them or look upon them as if they were something special and deserving of reverence and adulation. They did not go around demanding people to become members or face being imprisoned, tortured, or put to death as your institution practiced for centuries.

Luke 9:52-56
and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem. When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

The way to eternal life is knowing God. NOT the rcc. And certainly NOT through the rc sacraments. There is NOTHING in Scripture which even hints that we come to know God and experience salvation, through the actions of another person or an institution.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Jesus is God, and there have been posts, by different rc's that when it suits their purposes throw Jesus' name under the bus. They don't have to use explicit wording, the implication is there and definitely implied. No rc's do not know God or Jesus personally, because if they didn't they would have more respect for the name of Jesus'. And not use His name in vain and carelessly.
 
LifeIn said:
This doctrine is confusing to you because you are misunderstanding it. The doctrine does not say indulgences forgive sin. The doctrine applies only to temporal punishment, not eternal punishment. Temporal punishment means only for a limited time. We believe that even if sin is forgiven, that sin still incurs temporal punishment, either on earth before we die, or in purgatory after we die. And since you don't believe in purgatory, that is why the doctrine makes no sense to you. Even people who are saved have to suffer a while before they are admitted to the presence of God, at which time all sadness will be erased and their sufferings they will remember no more. All that plenary indulgences do is shorten that period of suffering - perhaps even reducing the period of earthly suffering. Here is more info from the Diocese of Philadelphia.
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The point Bonnie is making is that there is NO teaching or hint of the doctrine of purgatory in Scripture. There is NOTHING in Scripture that even remotely hints that the saved have to suffer after this life on earth, before being in the presence of God. There is NO such thing as purgatory hinted at in Scripture.

rc's just can't stand the idea that God would declare sinners free of sin and guilt without first becoming righteous. No one is more deserving of salvation than another, because he or she worked for it. I don't care what word is exchanged for "work" or "earned", the meaning and intention is the same.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

If mankind could become righteous through his/her power and strength; then Jesus died on the cross for nothing. Purgatory, takes the work Jesus did on the cross out of the equation. The teaching of purgatory is foolish, because it is boasting to God and in His face. Bragging about what you did to save yourself. Instead of doing what God commanded, and that is... that we are to trust Jesus exclusively, for He is our only hope and source of salvation.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God’s anger against us. He used Christ’s blood and our faith as the means of saving us from his wrath. Then what can we boast about doing to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him. So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.
 
A new day said:
The point Bonnie is making is that there is NO teaching or hint of the doctrine of purgatory in Scripture. There is NOTHING in Scripture that even remotely hints that the saved have to suffer after this life on earth, before being in the presence of God. There is NO such thing as purgatory hinted at in Scripture.

rc's just can't stand the idea that God would declare sinners free of sin and guilt without first becoming righteous. No one is more deserving of salvation than another, because he or she worked for it. I don't care what word is exchanged for "work" or "earned", the meaning and intention is the same.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

If mankind could become righteous through his/her power and strength; then Jesus died on the cross for nothing. Purgatory, takes the work Jesus did on the cross out of the equation. The teaching of purgatory is foolish, because it is boasting to God and in His face. Bragging about what you did to save yourself. Instead of doing what God commanded, and that is... that we are to trust Jesus exclusively, for He is our only hope and source of salvation.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God’s anger against us. He used Christ’s blood and our faith as the means of saving us from his wrath. Then what can we boast about doing to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him. So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.
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If I am not mistaken the RCC teaches that Jesus paid for the guilt of our sins on the cross, but NOT for the eternal punishment for those sins--eternity in hell. Believers must pay for that ourselves, either through suffering in this life, or in Purgatory, if we don't suffer enough in this life.

Some sins incur punishment from civil authorities, if we break the law. My husband was a chaplain for over 5 years, for a man who was on death row for over 25 years, for 2nd degree murder. He led this man back to faith in Jesus Christ and was with him nearby, when he was executed for his crime. But he died in faith, proclaiming his faith with his last breath. He had to suffer this punishment on earth for his crime, but there will be no punishment for him in the afterlife. I have no doubt that he is in heaven with his Lord, no stopover in purgatory. Jesus and the thief on the cross were together in Paradise after death, no stopover in purgatory! Paul said to be absent from the body was to be at home with the Lord.

Purgatory is a myth. Sad that the RCC turns aside to myths, instead of to God's word.
 
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balshan said:
Well that institution is not your bad tree, if it was the church he established it would follow what He did and taught, it would follow the apostles. It hasn't. You can say it as much as you like but the bride is not your evil institution that harms the sheep and has done so for centuries. Think if every human being is made in God's image your institution's has killed humans, tortured them, raped them, forced them to do things against their free will, abused them, are known for being sexually immoral, worst of all abused and molested children. What part of any of that is Christlike. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. What part of that do you think Jesus established.HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. It also teaches another gospel, maybe it would have been better if the leaders met the scriptural leadership requirements. But it is hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube so to speak.
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It has. The Catholic Church is the Church that was given and carried out the Great Commission. Not yours, 1500 years later.
 
pilgrim said:
It has. The Catholic Church is the Church that was given and carried out the Great Commission. Not yours, 1500 years later.
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Your institution is not the real church and forced conversion which is the history of your institution is not carrying out the Great Commission and is ignoring the RCC teaching on free will. But then the RCC is full of contradictions.
 
balshan said:
Your institution is not the real church and forced conversion which is the history of your institution is not carrying out the Great Commission and is ignoring the RCC teaching on free will. But then the RCC is full of contradictions.
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Yes it is.
 
pilgrim said:
It has. The Catholic Church is the Church that was given and carried out the Great Commission. Not yours, 1500 years later.
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Ba-lo-ney! Jesus did not give the ROMAN Catholic church the Great Commission, but simply "the church", all true believers. Your church did not even exist. He certainly did NOT give His church permission to teach false doctrines nowhere found in Scripture, not even a hint, nor to add or subtract from Scripture, or to go beyond what is written, "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men."
 
A new day said:
The point Bonnie is making is that there is NO teaching or hint of the doctrine of purgatory in Scripture.
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The part I quoted was not making that point. I addressed what I quoted.

Bonnie said:
If I am not mistaken the RCC teaches that Jesus paid for the guilt of our sins on the cross, but NOT for the eternal punishment for those sins-
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Yes, that is essentially what the Catholic Church teaches.
 
Bonnie said:
Jesus did not give the ROMAN Catholic church the Great Commission, but simply "the church", all true believers. Your church did not even exist.
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This question of the existence of "the church" through time is an interesting one. ( Here I am using the term "the church" in the sense you set out. That is, simply all true believers) The church was certainly very visible in the time the apostles, as they caused lots of trouble for the Roman authorities, as is documented in many places in scripture. I have heard various views from non-Catholic Christians on when the Catholic Church stopped being the church of true believers, or indeed if it ever was. At one extreme are those who say it never was "the church" but was invalid from the beginning, and the "true church" existed in parallel with and separate from the Catholic Church. Then some say the Catholic Church was valid for a while, but then lost its validity through corruption and the task of being the "true church" was passed on to others (i.e. their church). Then some at the other end of the spectrum say that the Catholic Church is OK as far as it goes, but their church is equally valid. I am curious where on this spectrum are your views located?
 
LifeIn said:
This question of the existence of "the church" through time is an interesting one. ( Here I am using the term "the church" in the sense you set out. That is, simply all true believers) The church was certainly very visible in the time the apostles, as they caused lots of trouble for the Roman authorities, as is documented in many places in scripture. I have heard various views from non-Catholic Christians on when the Catholic Church stopped being the church of true believers, or indeed if it ever was. At one extreme are those who say it never was "the church" but was invalid from the beginning, and the "true church" existed in parallel with and separate from the Catholic Church. Then some say the Catholic Church was valid for a while, but then lost its validity through corruption and the task of being the "true church" was passed on to others (i.e. their church). Then some at the other end of the spectrum say that the Catholic Church is OK as far as it goes, but their church is equally valid. I am curious where on this spectrum are your views located?
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The church was certainly very visible in the time the apostles, as they caused lots of trouble for the Roman authorities
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Can you give us some insight as to exactly what trouble the apostles or other christians caused roman authorities? I mean other than simply being a christian because we nor the bible would consider evangelization 'causing trouble'.
 
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