Roman Catholics - When was the last time that you . . . . .

1Thess521 said:
sure: I have yet to see why Catholics claim Sola Fide (if properly understood )is a heresy

Lets discuss this article
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OK, I have read it, and I found it to be an excellent article. It seems to capture the essence of the Catholic doctrine on Sola Fide and how some of the interpretations of this doctrine by the Reformation are not acceptable to Catholics. Just in terms of how I have seen Sola Fide sometimes used in this forum have this problem - particularly when they reject the role of works to confirm that faith. What did you think of Jimmy's article? Did you have any problems with it?
 
1Thess521 said:
What is the heresy?

Peter Kreeft:
Is it faith alone that justifies, or is it faith and works?
On this issue I believe Luther was simply right;

Jimmy Akin
that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

POPE FRANCIS SAYS LUTHER CORRECT ON JUSTIFICATION
“And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err."”
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Do you have specific citations (page numbers, video timestamps, websites, etc.) for any of these?
 
LifeIn said:
The "sola" part is a heresy. It appears nowhere in the bible, except in the negative sense. And even if you ignore that or otherwise dismiss it, we are sill left with the fact that it does not appear in the positive sense.
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The word may not be in the Bible, but the concept is!

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and NOT by works--either works of the law or works done in righteousness--so no one may boast...so, what is there left to be saved by?

SO--we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...this is "heresy"?
 
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Bonnie said:
The word may not be in the Bible, but the concept is!

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and NOT by works--either works of the law or works done in righteousness--so no one may boast...so, what is there left to be saved by?

SO--THIS is heresy--that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...this us "heresy"?
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See the very fruitful discussion with 1Thess521 where this is clarified, starting with post #172, culminating in posts #179 and #181.
 
Bonnie said:
Pppffffttt! Except YOUR church ceased to be the pillar and foundation of the truth many centuries ago! For hundreds of years, it has been "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men" and thus, worshiping God in vain, as He says in Isaiah, which Jesus quoted, to lambast the Pharisees for making man-made rules trump what is actually in Scripture.

So, yes, YOUR church needs desperately to correct itself, to admit it has taught many errors for centuries, like the 4 Marian dogmas, Indulgences, being subject to the Pope is necessary for salvation, etc.
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There is no truth to that^.
It is hard to even imagine that Jesus would break His promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. But that is the very thing you claim when you say the above statement.
 
Proverbs 9;18
But he knoweth not that the dead are there;
and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

pilgrim said:
There is no truth to that^.
It is hard to even imagine that Jesus would break His promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. But that is the very thing you claim when you say the above statement.
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pilgrim said:
There is no truth to that^.
It is hard to even imagine that Jesus would break His promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. But that is the very thing you claim when you say the above statement.
========================= end Pilgrim's comment

Wisdom hath builded her house,​
she hath hewn out her seven pillars:​
​
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom:​
and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.​
​
Come, eat of my bread,​
and drink of the wine​
which I have mingled.​
​
6 Forsake the foolish, and live;​
and go in the way of understanding.​

and the Foolish Woman
where "the dead are ; and her guests are in the depths of hell."
will not prevail against the Wise Woman

​
Proverbs 9;18​
But he knoweth not that the dead are there;​
and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​

ah Pilgrim;
Know ye not
he is the God of the Living;
not of the Dead
 
1Thess521 said:
Kreeft
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/10/roots-of-the-reformation-what-it-means-for-today/
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This link is a secondary source for the Kreeft statement, not the actual context of Kreeft's statement. Kreeft's comment appears in a published book: Peter Kreeft, Fundamentals of the Faith: Essays in Christian Apologetics (San Fransico: Ignatius Press, 1998). Via Google books, the quote can be found here and here, and also reviewed here.

What's interesting about the old Called to Communion link you posted is that the person in the comment box that originally mentioned Kreeft is a friend of mine. Also interesting is that my name comes up a few times in the link because I wrote a full response to the author of that Called to Communion article.

Notice also in that comment box, one of Rome's defenders states:

Peter Kreeft and Scott Hahn exchanged letters over this issue and after reading the material Hahn sent to him Kreeft accepted Hahn’s correction. In this audio link, Hahn reads the humble letter Kreeft sent back to him in which he retracted his hearty endorsement of Luther.
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So, if we're going to abide by "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good," it needs to be reiterated that 1) the Called to Communion link referenced is not a proper source for Kreeft's comment; 2) Kreeft's comment in context is opposed to the Protestant understanding of justification by faith alone; 3) In the letter from Kreeft to Hahn referenced by Rome's defenders at CTC, Kreeft says (at around 1:40) that he "confused the truth in Luther, sola gratia, with the untruth, sola fide."

I'm all for making Rome's defenders squirm, but not by misusing contexts.

JS
 
pilgrim said:
There is no truth to that^.
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Oh, there is plenty of truth in this! Your church has been "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men" for many centuries--something Jesus lambasted the Pharisees for, quoting God speaking through the prophet Isaiah. Precepts like...the 4 Marian dogmas (and believing them is necessary for salvation); being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation; Indulgences; purgatory; celibate, unmarried priesthood; salvation by grace through faith plus our works; praying to saints dead in the Lord as one would to God--the list of unholy and unbiblical teachings goes on....
pilgrim said:
It is hard to even imagine that Jesus would break His promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. But that is the very thing you claim when you say the above statement.
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Who said He did? No one, least of all me, said that the gates of Hell DID prevail against Jesus' church! No, that is NOT the very thing I have claimed in my statement! You are 100% wrong--again. Because the true church is the rule of Jesus Christ in the heart of every true believer, and there have always been those. God always keeps a remnant for Himself. But Jesus and the apostles warned that false teachings would creep into the church, leading people astray; false prophets would arise, and destructive heresies would infiltrate the church. They warned us to be on guard against these! So, having these things happen does NOT man that the church died and Satan prevailed.
 
LifeIn said:
See the very fruitful discussion with 1Thess521 where this is clarified, starting with post #172, culminating in posts #179 and #181.
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You wrote this in post no. 181--" Just in terms of how I have seen Sola Fide sometimes used in this forum have this problem - particularly when they reject the role of works to confirm that faith."

Where has anyone on here rejected the role of works to CONFIRM our faith? We don't reject that at all! In fact, we have affirmed that good works are the outcome of a true and living faith; that they prove that the faith is real. That we do good works IN salvation, not FOR salvation; we do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved. Doing them for the latter is selfish and there is no love in selfishness--is there?
 
Bonnie said:
You wrote this in post no. 181--" Just in terms of how I have seen Sola Fide sometimes used in this forum have this problem - particularly when they reject the role of works to confirm that faith."

Where has anyone on here rejected the role of works to CONFIRM our faith? We don't reject that at all! In fact, we have affirmed that good works are the outcome of a true and living faith; that they prove that the faith is real. That we do good works IN salvation, not FOR salvation; we do them BECAUSE we are saved, not to GET saved. Doing them for the latter is selfish and there is no love in selfishness--is there?
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Read Jimmy Akin's article cited by 1Thes521. It explains it better than I can.
 
Bonnie said:
Oh, there is plenty of truth in this! Your church has been "teaching for doctrine the precepts of men" for many centuries--something Jesus lambasted the Pharisees for, quoting God speaking through the prophet Isaiah. Precepts like...the 4 Marian dogmas (and believing them is necessary for salvation); being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation; Indulgences; purgatory; celibate, unmarried priesthood; salvation by grace through faith plus our works; praying to saints dead in the Lord as one would to God--the list of unholy and unbiblical teachings goes on....
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The Church has been teaching the truth and fulfilling the Great Commission for many canturies before the Protestants divided Christianity.
 
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