Romans 1 disproves total depravity, inability

GeneZ

Well-known member
If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as calvinists falsely claim, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

See the oxymorons with such a false systematic ?

Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

hope this helps !!!
Its stupidity hardened into concrete tradition...

Calvin was pioneering a new frontier since the RCC kept everyone on the dark ages concerning God's Word. Calvin was exploring for the first time what would not have been new turf if the Church had not been in a coma for centuries of papal neglect.

So, Calvin as a beginner discovered that man is depraved... "Totally depraved?" No! depraved.
Totally depraved would men that the soul of man was beyond redemption.

The depravity of man is contained in the flesh. And, the depraved flesh keeps man's soul unable to be righteous like drinking too much alcohol makes a man unable to drive safely on the road.

Now... what if God knows how to administer grace as to "sober" up that man? Sober him up long enough to think with a clear mind? That the soul would stop being enslaved to the ways of the flesh? And, while being placed into a state of sobriety by grace? To be given the Gospel to consider from a soul made sober by grace? Then the soul is made free to choose. But, not free to do so without grace.

Now if that sober soul finds itself wanting to reject the Gospel, like Satan wanted to reject the Lord? And, they will be free to reject even while grace is at work. Then, after enough grace offerings to decide is given.. God will stop giving the grace needed for that soul to make a choice, and leave that soul alone to die without excuse.

So, I ask. Would this damnable Calvinism TULIP never ending debate finally come to an end with sanity taking its place? Please.

And.. thank you.
 
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guest1

Guest
I have listened to hundreds of hours of Flowers.

Please read this article for his general position, and I have a response to him in the comments.

From your link :

Abasciano seems to assume the gospel (God’s word) itself cannot be considered a “supernatural work of the Holy Spirit,” which has the ability to sufficiently “penetrate the heart,” but the Bible seems to indicate otherwise:

“For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart”
Heb. 4:12
This penetrating work into the “soul and spirit” sounds like the work of “prevenient grace” described by my Arminian brethren, yet the author of Hebrews simply refers to “the word of God” as accomplishing this work, not some extra working of grace that aids the otherwise incapacitated nature of fallen man. Do God’s gracious means really need more grace to work?
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
From your link :

Abasciano seems to assume the gospel (God’s word) itself cannot be considered a “supernatural work of the Holy Spirit,” which has the ability to sufficiently “penetrate the heart,” but the Bible seems to indicate otherwise:


This penetrating work into the “soul and spirit” sounds like the work of “prevenient grace” described by my Arminian brethren, yet the author of Hebrews simply refers to “the word of God” as accomplishing this work, not some extra working of grace that aids the otherwise incapacitated nature of fallen man. Do God’s gracious means really need more grace to work?
The only one having "soul and spirit" is the regenerated person. One who has already entered into salvation.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
True, sorry. He used to claim the Spirit and the Gospel when he was here years ago; but now says the only Grace needed is the Gospel...

Grace is a real power of enablement, not a concept. Grace that is the power that is implemented by the Holy Spirit. When we are being filled with the Spirit we are walking in grace.

But he said to me, “My grace keeps on being sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
From your link :

Abasciano seems to assume the gospel (God’s word) itself cannot be considered a “supernatural work of the Holy Spirit,” which has the ability to sufficiently “penetrate the heart,” but the Bible seems to indicate otherwise:


This penetrating work into the “soul and spirit” sounds like the work of “prevenient grace” described by my Arminian brethren, yet the author of Hebrews simply refers to “the word of God” as accomplishing this work, not some extra working of grace that aids the otherwise incapacitated nature of fallen man. Do God’s gracious means really need more grace to work?

This verse is not talking about the written Bible.

One of Jesus' names is "The Word of God."
 
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guest1

Guest
Now we have another agreeing with this it seems...

”We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.”

Dr. Leighton Flowers
its 100% better than agreeing with augustine- the father/saint of Catholicism and Calvinism/Lutheranism which came from the popes teachings. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree now does it. And its where calvin gets most of his beliefs from since he was a professed and acknowledged augustinian.

next....
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Now we have another agreeing with this it seems...

”We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.”

Dr. Leighton Flowers

its 100% better than agreeing with augustine- the father/saint of Catholicism and Calvinism/Lutheranism which came from the popes teachings. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree now does it. And its where calvin gets most of his beliefs from since he was a professed and acknowledged augustinian.

next....
Now we have another agreeing with this it seems...

”We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.”

Dr. Leighton Flowers
Notice 40 years does not deny it. A true Pelagian if there ever was one
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Yeah. Let’s not trust a guy who has taught millions of ppl through his writings for centuries, almost two millennia, but trust some fledging with a following of a few thousands. 🙄🙄🙄
That about covers it. Calvinism will be around long after Provisionsim is a joke in a theological comic book somewhere
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
C'mon.

Put you in the reverse position and you'd be crying all over the place about argumentum ad populum and how Jesus only had a few followers.

I urge you to be more consistent.
 
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guest1

Guest
Yeah. Let’s not trust a guy who has taught millions of ppl through his writings for centuries, almost two millennia, but trust some fledging with a following of a few thousands. 🙄🙄🙄
False teachers and prophets have been around since the begging of time and there are cults that predate Christianity that are still around .

many more strawmen today ?

conflating truth with time rofl .

next
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Yeah. Let’s not trust a guy who has taught millions of ppl through his writings for centuries, almost two millennia, but trust some fledging with a following of a few thousands. 🙄🙄🙄
So does that mean we should reject everything that Reformers said because they pivoted away from Catholicism? Guess that means what we should do then right?
 
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