Romans 11 and the elect

Theophilos

Member
Paul compares the people of God to an olive tree in Romans Chapter 11. The Jews formed the original tree, but those who did not accept Christ are branches that have been broken off. In their place gentile believers have been grafted. Gentiles are warned that they too can be broken off unless they "remain in goodness". Jews who do not remain in unbelief will be grafted back in. Here is the passage:
I say to you Gentiles: Certainly, as long as I am an Apostle to the Gentiles, I will honor my ministry, in such a way that I might provoke to rivalry those who are my own flesh, and so that I may save some of them. For if their loss is for the reconciliation of the world, what could their return be for, except life out of death?

For if the first-fruit has been sanctified, so also has the whole. And if the root is holy, so also are the branches. And if some of the branches are broken, and if you, being a wild olive branch, are grafted on to them, and you become a partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree, do not glorify yourself above the branches. For though you glory, you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Therefore, you would say: The branches were broken off, so that I might be grafted on. Well enough. They were broken off because of unbelief. But you stand on faith. So do not choose to savor what is exalted, but instead be afraid. For if God has not spared the natural branches, perhaps also he might not spare you.
So then, notice the goodness and the severity of God. Certainly, toward those who have fallen, there is severity; but toward you, there is the goodness of God, if you remain in goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Moreover, if they do not remain in unbelief, they will be grafted on. For God is able to graft them on again. So if you have been cut off from the wild olive tree, which is natural to you, and, contrary to nature, you are grafted on to the good olive tree, how much more shall those who are the natural branches be grafted on to their own olive tree? Romans 11:13-24
Who are the elect in this passage? If Jews were the original elect how can they be broken off for unbelief? If they are not the elect then how can they grafted back in if "they do not remain in unbelief"?

Likewise are gentile believers the elect? If so, then how can they be cut off if they do not "remain in goodness"?
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Paul compares the people of God to an olive tree in Romans Chapter 11. The Jews formed the original tree, but those who did not accept Christ are branches that have been broken off. In their place gentile believers have been grafted. Gentiles are warned that they too can be broken off unless they "remain in goodness". Jews who do not remain in unbelief will be grafted back in. Here is the passage:

Who are the elect in this passage? If Jews were the original elect how can they be broken off for unbelief? If they are not the elect then how can they grafted back in if "they do not remain in unbelief"?

Likewise are gentile believers the elect? If so, then how can they be cut off if they do not "remain in goodness"?
The Elect in Romans 11 is a remnant of Israel

Rom. 11:5–7 —ESV
“So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
¶ What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,”

Rom. 11:5–7 —KJV
“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Paul compares the people of God to an olive tree in Romans Chapter 11. The Jews formed the original tree, but those who did not accept Christ are branches that have been broken off. In their place gentile believers have been grafted. Gentiles are warned that they too can be broken off unless they "remain in goodness". Jews who do not remain in unbelief will be grafted back in. Here is the passage:

Who are the elect in this passage? If Jews were the original elect how can they be broken off for unbelief? If they are not the elect then how can they grafted back in if "they do not remain in unbelief"?

Likewise are gentile believers the elect? If so, then how can they be cut off if they do not "remain in goodness"?
To remain in goodness is to remain in Faith. It's Covenantal; if we wanted to be Saved back then, we had to be in their Covenant. Now they have to be in our Covenant. Both we're through Faith...
 

Theophilos

Member
The Elect in Romans 11 is a remnant of Israel

Rom. 11:5–7 —ESV
“So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
¶ What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,”

Rom. 11:5–7 —KJV
“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”
If God broke off Jews who did not believe are they removed from the elect?

If God grafted them back in because they do not persist in unbelief are they back in the elect?
 

Theophilos

Member
To remain in goodness is to remain in Faith. It's Covenantal; if we wanted to be Saved back then, we had to be in their Covenant. Now they have to be in our Covenant. Both we're through Faith...
. . .do not choose to savor what is exalted, but instead be afraid. For if God has not spared the natural branches, perhaps also he might not spare you . . . there is the goodness of God, if you remain in goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 11:20-22

Are gentiles who professed faith but do not "remain in goodness" still part of the elect?
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
. . .do not choose to savor what is exalted, but instead be afraid. For if God has not spared the natural branches, perhaps also he might not spare you . . . there is the goodness of God, if you remain in goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 11:20-22

Are gentiles who professed faith but do not "remain in goodness" still part of the elect?

Faith is a gift from God. The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Since faith is a gift, God doesn't take faith back and there is no verse in the entire Bible that states such nonsense.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).


Salvation is totally of the Lord.
 

Theophilos

Member
Faith is a gift from God. The elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Since faith is a gift, God doesn't take faith back and there is no verse in the entire Bible that states such nonsense.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).


Salvation is totally of the Lord.

Okay, which people are the elect in the passage in the OP?

Are the Jews who formed the original olive tree the elect? If so why are some cut off for unbelief?

Are the unbelieving Jews not part of the elect? If so then how could they be grafted back into the tree if they "do not persist in unbelief"?
 

TibiasDad

Active member
Paul compares the people of God to an olive tree in Romans Chapter 11. The Jews formed the original tree, but those who did not accept Christ are branches that have been broken off. In their place gentile believers have been grafted. Gentiles are warned that they too can be broken off unless they "remain in goodness". Jews who do not remain in unbelief will be grafted back in. Here is the passage:

Who are the elect in this passage? If Jews were the original elect how can they be broken off for unbelief? If they are not the elect then how can they grafted back in if "they do not remain in unbelief"?

Likewise are gentile believers the elect? If so, then how can they be cut off if they do not "remain in goodness"?

The simplest way to explain it is that we are/become elect when we believe. The elect are believers. The dilemma in your question is only potent if you assume a Reformed definition of elect.


Doug
 

Theophilos

Member
The simplest way to explain it is that we are/become elect when we believe. The elect are believers. The dilemma in your question is only potent if you assume a Reformed definition of elect.


Doug
Yes, I don't see how the passage from Romans can be reconciled with Reformed statements about the elect and human free will.

An orthodox understanding is that God knows the future, but He also gives humans free will. The passage from Romans is consistent with that understanding.
 

armylngst

Active member
The simplest way to explain it is that we are/become elect when we believe. The elect are believers. The dilemma in your question is only potent if you assume a Reformed definition of elect.


Doug
That is completely contrary to Ephesians 1:4-5
 

armylngst

Active member
Yes, I don't see how the passage from Romans can be reconciled with Reformed statements about the elect and human free will.

An orthodox understanding is that God knows the future, but He also gives humans free will. The passage from Romans is consistent with that understanding.
If I could tell you exactly what you are going to do before you do it, and you have no choice but to do that, do you really have free will? If God knows the future, He already knows every outcome, every decision. Are we free to run against that? Do we have a free will, or are we destined to do what God has already foreseen? If looking from God's position, is it possible to say that there is free will? If you watch a movie 2000 times, is there any time where any character is going to decide to act differently?
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
If God broke off Jews who did not believe are they removed from the elect?

If God grafted them back in because they do not persist in unbelief are they back in the elect?
Certainly anyone graphed in would be elect which just means chosen
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
. . .do not choose to savor what is exalted, but instead be afraid. For if God has not spared the natural branches, perhaps also he might not spare you . . . there is the goodness of God, if you remain in goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 11:20-22

Are gentiles who professed faith but do not "remain in goodness" still part of the elect?
Your OP had more verses than that, about the Goodness of Faith...
 

Theophilos

Member
If I could tell you exactly what you are going to do before you do it, and you have no choice but to do that, do you really have free will? If God knows the future, He already knows every outcome, every decision. Are we free to run against that? Do we have a free will, or are we destined to do what God has already foreseen? If looking from God's position, is it possible to say that there is free will? If you watch a movie 2000 times, is there any time where any character is going to decide to act differently?
Astronomers know the positions of planets decades in advance with remarkable accuracy.

Does that mean that they control the locations of the planets?
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
If I could tell you exactly what you are going to do before you do it, and you have no choice but to do that, do you really have free will?
Astronomers know the positions of planets decades in advance with remarkable accuracy.

Does that mean that they control the locations of the planets?

You're dodging the question.
The question is about "free will".

So if you want to apply that to the topic of "astronomy", the question would be, "Do the planets have 'free will' to be other than where astronomers know they WILL be?"

And the answer is clearly, "no".
 

Theophilos

Member
You're dodging the question.
The question is about "free will".

So if you want to apply that to the topic of "astronomy", the question would be, "Do the planets have 'free will' to be other than where astronomers know they WILL be?"

And the answer is clearly, "no".
No. The response was addressing the fallacy that foreknowledge implies predetermination.

I have yet to see a Calvinist response to the questions in the OP. Who are the elect in passage from Romans 11?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That is completely contrary to Ephesians 1:4-5
No it is not

We are in Christ when we believe

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No. The response was addressing the fallacy that foreknowledge implies predetermination.

Sorry, but you are simply not allowing people to make their argument.
You want a direct and final answer, without working towards it.

That's like demanding someone explain Calculus before they learn basic arithmetic.

If an astronomer knows what the position of the planets will be in a month from now, that means that the planets NECESSARILY have to be in those locations a month from now.

If God knows what you will do a month from now, that means you will NECESSARILY do those things, and you cannot do otherwise.

That is simply a FACT.

I have yet to see a Calvinist response to the questions in the OP. Who are the elect in passage from Romans 11?

That's like asking what Peter's wife's name was.
Or what colour Thomas' eyes were.

We are unable to answer questions that Scripture has not revealed.
We are not God.
We do NOT know who the elect are.
If you NEED to know who the elect are, and feel that you hav some "right" to know, I suggest you ask God.
 

travelah

Active member
Paul compares the people of God to an olive tree in Romans Chapter 11. The Jews formed the original tree, but those who did not accept Christ are branches that have been broken off. In their place gentile believers have been grafted. Gentiles are warned that they too can be broken off unless they "remain in goodness". Jews who do not remain in unbelief will be grafted back in. Here is the passage:

Who are the elect in this passage? If Jews were the original elect how can they be broken off for unbelief? If they are not the elect then how can they grafted back in if "they do not remain in unbelief"?

Likewise are gentile believers the elect? If so, then how can they be cut off if they do not "remain in goodness"?
You have to throw out the entire 'eenie meanie minie mo' presentation Calvinists make about election. This is talking about an elect people, a nation of the loins of Abraham selected to fulfil God's eternal plan
 
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