Romans 9 is not about indivduals as Calvinism teaches.

Chalcedon said:
Yes amen to Israel in Romans 9-11 as I demonstrated with the beginning of each chapter .

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The portion I quoted is nothing to do with Israel, or any other nation. It is about God's sovereignty in salvation, softening one and hardening another. Yes, there are parts of Rom. 9-11 that are to do with Israel, with respect to salvation and God's sovereignty in salvation.
 
Chalcedon said:
It is ironic that a passage, designed to exemplify God’s right to choose who will be saved and by what means, has been used to mandate an election and calling defined by a man! Calvinism, and so called "orthodoxy", have philosophically defined God’s sovereignty, such that it is impossible for God to choose who will be saved, at least outside of Calvin's choice. Free-will, man's choices, and an individual's character are theoretically prohibited from serving as a basis of God’s choice, even though this passage was designed to vindicate God’s right to choose who would be saved. However, if we look closely at Romans 9 and its referenced passages, we can observe where God has manipulated nations in His grand scheme, or judicially hardened rebellious individuals. Yet, He still allowed the ultimate fate of both nation and individual to be chosen through either penitent obedience or stubborn disobedience.
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Why do you put man above God? Man's free will above God? Yes, our free will is not over God, and our character is not over God. Ephesians 1 says that God's choice was by "the good pleasure of His will." It says NOTHING of man's free will, and NOTHING of our character. It just says, God felt like it. You too ignore why individuals and nations are obedient (through penitent obedience) or why they are disobedient (stubborn disobedience). Why are they that way? What is going on in eternity that we cannot see? Nowhere in scripture does it say God allows us to do anything apart from His will, or from His knowledge. NOWHERE. That is Paul's whole point with the potter and the clay. The potter is in control of everything. The potter picks up the clay and already sees what they are going to make, and makes it. The clay has no say, no free will to speak of, to become anything other than what the potter envisions. And Paul's response for those who would say we do? Who are you to talk back at God? We can only accept what God has made us. However, while said that easily, it is actually a complicated understanding, because we still live life. It's just understood that we will end up where God wills us to be. That does not say anything as to how that will happen.
Chalcedon said:
Yes, Romans 9 clearly teaches God’s sovereignty and the immutability of God’s election. However, we have learned to be careful and not to interject our prejudices into the context. By exercising diligence (II Timothy 2:15; II Peter 3:14-18), we have examined the context of the Old Testament passages quoted by Paul, so we could clearly see that God’s unconditional election only applied to the role of nations in producing the Messiah, not the salvation of individuals (Genesis 25:22-23; Malachi 1:1-4). Although God may judicially harden an individual, it only occurs after an individual demonstrates himself to be opposed to redemption through his rejection of God’s message, God’s discipline, and God’s mercy (Exodus 3:19-20; 4:21-23; 5:1-2; 9:22-28).
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You have no support for that final statement. God exists in eternity. God is the Creator. Why do you keep bringing God down from heaven and making Him a man, with the same constraints as we have? That is not God. That is an idol you have made in your own image. God knew before the world was ever created that He would harden said individual. He lives in eternity. How quickly some forget that God is not like us, and the Bible actually takes the time to say just that. Ephesians 1 makes it clear that the election is on an individual level. Paul makes that clear. However, there is no one on Earth who can tell you who God has chosen, who God has elected. Elijah didn't even know which individuals God had elected not to bow to Baal, those who were His, yet God told Elijah that He had done just that, and set aside a remnant of the nation of Israel.
Chalcedon said:
Finally, God may certainly fashion either a nation or an individual for salvation or condemnation, but God will modify His plans based on the subject's response (Jeremiah 18:5-11). Only through one's cleansing himself of evil works may he be fashioned and prepared for salvation, good works, and use by the Master (II Timothy 2:20-21). Yes, God has made an irrevocable choice, and His choice is to save those who humbly trust in His Son, repent, and obey (Proverbs 28:13; Isaiah 55:7; I Peter 5:5; Matthew 7:21-23). The gospel is designed to invite, touch, and draw these people, and it will by no means fail, because God is its Author (Isaiah 55:11).https://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/romans_9.html

hope this helps !!!
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Given your statement about Jeremiah 18:5-11, you do not believe in God's omniscience, as you are basically saying that God has no clue what a subject's response will be, so He may have to modify His plans. You follow that up with saying that salvation is by works, and that one has to wash oneself before taking a bath. (Cleanse himself of evil works to be prepared for salvation.) The thing you need to remember is that in Ephesians 1, God ordained individuals to adoption as children. Because He did this, and this adoption is by Christ's death (salvation), God has chosen them in Christ, to live holy and blameless. Grammatically, as Paul does more than once in his writings, verse 5 comes before verse 4. Verse 4 is the action done by God, because verse 5 happened first. It is at the individual level. Hence God speaks of the names of the redeemed written in the book of life "from the foundation of the world". Why? Because God had chosen whom He would adopt as children before the foundation of the world.
 
Chalcedon said:
Romans 11:1-2
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people,whom he foreknew.

conclusion: Calvinism distorts the meaning of Roman’s 9-11. It’s about Israel
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Yes, it is about Israel. Israel itself as a nation was rejected, but individual Israelite's like Paul were saved because of the election of grace.
 
David1701 said:
The portion I quoted is nothing to do with Israel, or any other nation. It is about God's sovereignty in salvation, softening one and hardening another. Yes, there are parts of Rom. 9-11 that are to do with Israel, with respect to salvation and God's sovereignty in salvation.
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I think it is both about the nation and individuals and not an either or situation which causes all the debates with these chapters . You have a balanced position that includes both of them .
 
Chalcedon said:
Nope chapters 9-11 are national Israel.
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Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

The kingdom was taken from National Israel and given to Jesus' Ekklesia that we now call the Church.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

That nation consists of elect Jews and elect Gentiles. In this way, all Israel will be saved.
 
Bocco said:
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

The kingdom was taken from National Israel and given to Jesus' Ekklesia that we now call the Church.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

That nation consists of elect Jews and elect Gentiles. In this way, all Israel will be saved.
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We were talking about Romans , so if you want to discuss those passages and the OT quotes which Paul uses then let’s do that .

hope this helps !!!
 
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