Romans4

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Janice Bower said:
Men need to see their fruits(works) to believe they are justified. God is the one Who justifies. Justification by men is not justification before God.
Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

That's because Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--rather, Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the Jews--and they rejected, in lieu of the Mosaic Law. Yet--all the time running to "father Abraham" to claim their elite status. I thought Paul's point here was genius, but much misunderstood by the critics.

David lived under the works Paul referred to:

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"-----(Mosaic law)

So--if the critics here want to use Romans4 as scripture to justify faith alone theology--could they please explain to us the preceding verses found in Romans2?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me--if Paul's reasoning is used to promote faith alone theology in Romans 4--then Romans 2 is false. There is a fly in the soup, when Romans4 is used as the critics here claim.

And it doesn't end there:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Paul--dividing the works of the law--from the gospel.

Anyone care to explain that?
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
That's because Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--rather, Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the Jews--and they rejected, in lieu of the Mosaic Law. Yet--all the time running to "father Abraham" to claim their elite status. I thought Paul's point here was genius, but much misunderstood by the critics.

David lived under the works Paul referred to:

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"-----(Mosaic law)

So--if the critics here want to use Romans4 as scripture to justify faith alone theology--could they please explain to us the preceding verses found in Romans2?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me--if Paul's reasoning is used to promote faith alone theology in Romans 4--then Romans 2 is false. There is a fly in the soup, when Romans4 is used as the critics here claim.

And it doesn't end there:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Paul--dividing the works of the law--from the gospel.

Anyone care to explain that?
dberrie, like Joseph Smith, denies the ability of non-Mormons and ex-Mormons to understand the Gospel of Christ. Why are there critics of Joseph Smith's teachings on planet earth?

Joseph Smith taught that all churches are wrong except the one he founded. Mormons teach that only one church pleases God---the one that Joseph Smith founded.

Joseph Smith taught that Adam had and followed the teachings of the true Gospel.

Joseph Smith taught that the Mormon temple covenants and ordinances are necessary to obtain eternal life.

Mormons change the verses in their scriptures which were supposedly revealed by God.

Is Mormonism true?


What is truth?

Doctrine and Covenants 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

If God restored the truth through Joseph Smith, why have the racist verses been removed from the Book of Mormon in my time? Were those verses not true?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Joseph Smith taught that the Mormon temple covenants and ordinances are necessary to obtain eternal life.
No. He didn't. He taught, as did Jesus, that those who keep the commandments can obtain eternal life. The prerequisite for that is baptism which is an expression of our faith in Jesus Christ.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
No. He didn't. He taught, as did Jesus, that those who keep the commandments can obtain eternal life. The prerequisite for that is baptism which is an expression of our faith in Jesus Christ.
Are the temple covenants and ordinances necessary for eternal life according to Mormon doctrine?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
They were removed long before your time. Joseph Smith removed them himself.
Except the Mormon "priesthoods" were denied black men until 1978, when your church's president conveniently received a 'revelation" from its god ending that restriction.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie, like Joseph Smith, denies the ability of non-Mormons and ex-Mormons to understand the Gospel of Christ.

Cite, please. dberrie hasn't questioned the ability of anyone to understand--only the willingness to believe. It's a choice.

Now--care to address the OP?
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
Cite, please. dberrie hasn't questioned the ability of anyone to understand--only the willingness to believe. It's a choice.

Now--care to address the OP?
Do non-Mormons understand the Gospel of Christ? Do you understand it? How do you know that Christians don't believe the Gospel?

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
That's because Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--rather, Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the Jews--and they rejected, in lieu of the Mosaic Law. Yet--all the time running to "father Abraham" to claim their elite status. I thought Paul's point here was genius, but much misunderstood by the critics.

David lived under the works Paul referred to:

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"-----(Mosaic law)

So--if the critics here want to use Romans4 as scripture to justify faith alone theology--could they please explain to us the preceding verses found in Romans2?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

For me--if Paul's reasoning is used to promote faith alone theology in Romans 4--then Romans 2 is false. There is a fly in the soup, when Romans4 is used as the critics here claim.

And it doesn't end there:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Paul--dividing the works of the law--from the gospel.

Anyone care to explain that?

My simple answer is this... Your focus is wrong. Let me refocus you for one post. 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

It's not the deeds that are only being judged. What is most important is the hard and impenitent hearts they had.

It is the heart that leads men (and women) to choose evil deeds.

Now I know where you will probably go next. You are going to ask about the "Good Works" of Mormons? That is a fair question. If your Good Works are done with a hard and impenitent heart, then as Isaiah wrote, they are filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So, there's the response you are asking for.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
My simple answer is this... Your focus is wrong. Let me refocus you for one post. 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

It's not the deeds that are only being judged. What is most important is the hard and impenitent hearts they had.

It is the heart that leads men (and women) to choose evil deeds.

Now I know where you will probably go next. You are going to ask about the "Good Works" of Mormons? That is a fair question. If your Good Works are done with a hard and impenitent heart, then as Isaiah wrote, they are filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So, there's the response you are asking for.
Hi Yoda--nice seeing you on here again! Good answer!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It's not the deeds that are only being judged.

But it is the deeds being judged:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You can add whatever you will--but if that is true--faith alone theology is false.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That's Old Testament--where all men were condemned due to the Fall.

Here is New Testament theology--after the Atonement of Jesus Christ:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You won't be judging true Christians who know the Bible truth that God saves us by FAITH ALONE!

In the LDS church, it's God's grace which saves--not faith alone.

The Biblical text has something to say about "faith alone":

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible

24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

"Bible truth"
?
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
But it is the deeds being judged:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You can add whatever you will--but if that is true--faith alone theology is false.



That's Old Testament--where all men were condemned due to the Fall.

Here is New Testament theology--after the Atonement of Jesus Christ:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No... Also, and primarily the heart is what is being judged. Of course, the works are being judged. Bad works come from a bad heart.
Until a person is in Christ, they are still under the law or a law.

Here is where you continually fail. You do not understand the conversion process from unbeliever to believer. Let me help you out.

Jeremiah 17:9
King James Version
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This passage transcends testaments, covenants, and dispensations.

Ephesians 2:4-6
King James Version
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


This passage lets us know that believers who were dead in their sins was brought to life by the Holy Spirit. This is not something that we did.

2 Corinthians 5:17
King James Version
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This passage lets us know once we are in Christ, we are new creatures. Not old creatures who changed their minds. New creatures. This means that believers are different than before.

Romans 1:16-17
King James Version
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Since Paul wrote both this passage and Romans 2, you are missing the goal here of Paul's writing. Rather than reconciling Paul's words, you are pitting them against each other.
 
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