Romans4

[dberrie2020]

dberrie said---But it is the deeds being judged:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You can add whatever you will--but if that is true--faith alone theology is false.

That's Old Testament--where all men were condemned due to the Fall.

Here is New Testament theology--after the Atonement of Jesus Christ:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

No...

That's more denial.

Also, and primarily the heart is what is being judged. Of course, the works are being judged. Bad works come from a bad heart.

Wherever one might feel the works come from--one is still judged according to works--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Until a person is in Christ, they are still under the law or a law.

Are you referring to the OT Law of Moses--or the NT law of Christ?

Galatians 6:1-9---King James Version
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[dberrie2020]

Here is where you continually fail. You do not understand the conversion process from unbeliever to believer. Let me help you out.

Jeremiah 17:9
King James Version
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

LOL. Why go to the OT?

Mark 1:1-5---King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Anathema to faith alone theology.

This passage transcends testaments, covenants, and dispensations.

Ephesians 2:4-6
King James Version
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

How does that annul what Paul testified to in Ephesians?

Ephesians 5:3-6---King James Version
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

This passage lets us know that believers who were dead in their sins was brought to life by the Holy Spirit.

This Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

This is not something that we did.

But this is:

"Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

2 Corinthians 5:17
King James Version
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This passage lets us know once we are in Christ, we are new creatures. Not old creatures who changed their minds. New creatures. This means that believers are different than before.

I agree. How does that somehow cover up or cancel out the fact those who walk in His light--receive of His salvational grace?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Romans 1:16-17
King James Version
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Since Paul wrote both this passage and Romans 2, you are missing the goal here of Paul's writing. Rather than reconciling Paul's words, you are pitting them against each other.

I believe the scriptures are pitted against one another when one excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--in attaining eternal life:

Romans 6:22---King James Version
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

dberrie said---But it is the deeds being judged: etc etc etc

I think you are misunderstanding more than just salvation. There are at least four judgments in the Bible.

(1) The judgment of the Lord Jesus on the cross as a substitute for sinners;
(2) The judgment of the saints before the judgment seat of Christ for works;
(3) The judgment of the Gentiles on the earth (Matt. 25:31-46);

Matthew 25:31-46
King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(4) The judgment of the dead (Rev. 20:11-15).

Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Number one is done.
Number two judges the believers in Christ. This judgement does not change their final destination. It does judge their actions.
Number three and four are primarily unbelievers who have rejected the Biblical Christ. This judgement does decide their final destination.

 

[Janice Bower]

dberrie said---Christians definitely believe the gospel--that's why they are Christians.

It's faith alone theology which questions the gospel:

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Janice--here is an example of that:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's God extending His grace to them which obey Him--and do His works.

Why do the faith alone adherents deny that? Why do they preach a gospel where all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ is excluded in obtaining eternal life?



What do you feel isn't the gospel in the above verses? Why do the faith alone seem to become exited whenever the scriptures are posted which defy faith alone theology?

There are NO scriptures that defy Ephesians 2:8-9. Unsaved people don't understand or obey.

 

[Bonnie]

There are NO scriptures that defy Ephesians 2:8-9. Unsaved people don't understand or obey.

No, there are not. Those without the indwelling HS will not understand those verses on a spiritual level, will they?

 

[Janice Bower]

No, there are not. Those without the indwelling HS will not understand those verses on a spiritual level, will they?

And those verses are so utterly CLEAR!

 

[brotherofJared]

There are NO scriptures that defy Ephesians 2:8-9.

That's clearly not true. Saying it is doesn't make it so.

 

[dberrie2020]

There are NO scriptures that defy Ephesians 2:8-9.

But the scriptures are rife with testimony which defy faith alone theology, and their understanding of some verses.

That's the problem, Janice. So--how are you claiming Ephesians2:8-9 violates tthe posted scriptures?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 5:3-6---King James Version
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Unsaved people don't understand or obey.

That is just a claim. Where do we find that in the scriptures?

Are you claiming those who walked in the light here--were saved prior to receiving His Blood?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Or--were those saved here--before they received God's grace?

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Requiring one to obey before they receive of His grace is commonly found in the scriptures:

Matthew 3:5-10---King James Version
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

How could one inherit eternal life--if they are hewn down, and how could one prevent from being hewn down--except they bring forth fruit?

Disconnecting all fruit from obtaining eternal life (works)--is a dog which just ain't gonna hunt, as to obtaining eternal life--as a personal reception.

 

[MMDAN]

In the LDS church, it's God's grace which saves--not faith alone.

The Biblical text has something to say about "faith alone":

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

"Bible truth"?

James 2:24 is a major stumbling block for Mormons and other works-salvationists who misinterpret it and contradict Romans 4:2-6.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

James 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead faith) only.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

What James means by "faith alone" is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24) which is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

*It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith, not works.

Yet in 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon, we read - ..for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. In other words do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you, which is salvation by works, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9.

The LDS church does not understand grace and they mix grace and works. Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

FAITH (rightly understood in Christ) ALONE still stands.

 

[Bonnie]

James 2:24 is a major stumbling block for Mormons and other works-salvationists who misinterpret it and contradict Romans 4:2-6.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

James 2:24 - You see then that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works, and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead faith) only.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

What James means by "faith alone" is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24) which is not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

*It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith, not works.

Yet in 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon, we read - ..for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. In other words do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you, which is salvation by works, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9.

The LDS church does not understand grace and they mix grace and works. Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

FAITH (rightly understood in Christ) ALONE still stands.

Amen, Dan. So, Justified here means "vindicated." Good analysis!

 

[dberrie2020]

James 2:24 is a major stumbling block for Mormons .....

I disagree. The LDS just believe the testimony:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

It's just part of their theology.

I believe it is a stumbling block for the faith alone---and poses some major theology problems for them, IMO.

and other works-salvationists who misinterpret it and contradict Romans 4:2-6.

So--are you claiming James is a "works-salvationists"? And why does it contradict Romans 4?

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

And David lived under the Law of works(Mosaic Law)--but foresaw the gospel.

IOW--Abraham lived under the gospel--not works(Moasic Law).

So--if you believe Paul was referring to obedience to Jesus Christ, under the gospel--could you explain this?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

That does not exactly fit your claim of Romans 4.

 

[dberrie2020]

Amen, Dan. So, Justified here means "vindicated." Good analysis!

That just isn't going to solve the dispute, for this simple reason:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

God vindicated all men there. Absolved them of the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. Free gift to all men. "Justification of life", or--justified from the Fall--vindicated, and eternal life offered to all men, as an opportunity--free gift. Christ alone.

The forgiveness of our personal sins--requires our choice:

Acts 2:38--King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's God's grace for our obedience. Those are two different graces from God. One, a free gift. The other requires our obedience. One frees us(justifies, vindicates) us from the condemnation of the Fall--the other--from our personal sins.

 

[MMDAN]

I disagree. The LDS just believe the testimony:

LDS misinterpret James 2:24 and fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What does James means by faith alone? CONTEXT - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Once again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Now let that sink in.

It's just part of their theology.

False theology.

I believe it is a stumbling block for the faith alone---and poses some major theology problems for them, IMO.

It's not a stumbling block for faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone at all as I already explained in post #33.

So--are you claiming James is a "works-salvationists"? And why does it contradict Romans 4?

James is not a works-salvationist, but you are. I already explained why your misinterpretation of James 2:24 contradicts Romans 4:2-3, but apparently what I explained to you went right over your head.

And David lived under the Law of works (Mosaic Law)--but foresaw the gospel.

God imputes righteousness apart from works. What do YOU believe the gospel IS and also what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

IOW--Abraham lived under the gospel--not works (Moasic Law).

What is the gospel that Abraham lived under? Galatians 3:8 - And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

So--if you believe Paul was referring to obedience to Jesus Christ, under the gospel--could you explain this?

The gospel that Paul refers to is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

That does not exactly fit your claim of Romans 4.

It fits just fine. You misinterpreted Romans 2:5-11 in order to make it accommodate your "works based" false gospel.

 

[dberrie2020]

Yet in 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon, we read - ..for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. In other words do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you, which is salvation by works, in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9.

So--how do you feel that differs from the Biblical testimony?

Matthew 10:22--King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The LDS church does not understand grace and they mix grace and works. Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

FAITH (rightly understood in Christ) ALONE still stands.

Again--no one has claimed it is by works--rather--it is by God's grace. No one is disputing that.

So--after we agree to that--there is a giant elephant still sitting in the room--who does God extend that grace to?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

That's the point the faith alone jump through hoops to avoid, IMO.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

"justified" as to what? Well--to receive God's grace--which is what saves.

 

[dberrie2020]

What is the gospel that Abraham lived under? Galatians 3:8 - And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

Is this the reason why Abraham received those promises?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes,

The gospel that Paul refers to is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

Are you claiming that excludes this obedience?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[MMDAN]

It's faith alone which the critics here claim one obtains eternal life through. IOW--what the scriptures label as a faith which is dead--the faith alone adherents claim is a saving faith.

Saving faith is a faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation that obtains eternal life. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This kind of faith is alive in Christ and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14)

Which is what faith alone is--barren of works--in obtaining eternal life.

That is what 'faith alone' or 'faith only' is according to James 2:14-24. Empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." Not to be confused with faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Then it does not require genuine faith to be saved unto eternal life, in faith alone theology--as it's a faith without works in obtaining eternal life in that theology.

Genuine faith TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation in faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone theology. This kind of faith does not remain alone in producing good works so it's not alone in that sense, but it's still faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation that saves. We are saved by faith apart from the merit of works, yet genuine faith does not remain alone apart from the presence of works.

IOW--in faith alone theology, aren't you claiming it takes something AFTER one receives eternal life--before it's genuine?

What makes faith genuine is that it TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation. Works which follow only demonstrate that it's genuine.

Faith is ALONE in obtaining eternal life, in faith alone theology--that's why it's called "faith alone". No works necessary or required to obtain eternal life.

God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but works are not the essence of faith or the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life. This seems to be very difficult for you to understand and there is a reason for that.

What James terms a faith which is dead(faith alone)--the faith alone adherents claim is a faith which one is saved through.

That is false and I have clearly explained the difference between and empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" (James 2:14) and genuine faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

No one has claimed one is saved by anything other than God's grace. And His grace unto life goes to them which obey Him.

Grace and works don't mix. (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

But to finish the story--according to you--do you believe when Paul used the term "faith"--he was referring to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Paul was referring to a faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION and does not remain barren of works. We are not saved by both faith and works, but by faith, not works. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and works, which explains why you teach salvation by faith and works.

 

[MMDAN]

So--how do you feel that differs from the Biblical testimony?

Matthew 10:22--King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The same one's who endure to the end are the same one's who have been saved through faith. Enduring to the end is proof of genuine conversion.

Again--no one has claimed it is by works--rather--it is by God's grace. No one is disputing that.

Yeah right. You continue to teach that we are saved by both faith and works.

So--after we agree to that--there is a giant elephant still sitting in the room--who does God extend that grace to?

Those with authentic faith. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I just explained these passages of scripture to you in post #37. Do you even bother to read my posts or do you just skim over what I read as you continue to "parrot off" what your predecessors before you have taught.

ONCE AGAIN:

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

That's the point the faith alone jump through hoops to avoid, IMO.

I did not avoid anything. Now be sure to thoroughly read my post.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

"justified" as to what? Well--to receive God's grace--which is what saves.

Just admit that you teach salvation by works. Here you demonstrate that you interpret James 2:24 to mean that a person is justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works and not by faith alone. The correct interpretation IN CONTEXT is that a person is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

 

[MMDAN]

For me--there is no interpretation--it stands just as it reads:

You don't understand that the term "justified" has more than one meaning. 1. Accounted as righteous 2. Shown to be righteous. You also don't understand that in context, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) So your interpretation stands as a misinterpretation and the end result is salvation by works, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:2-6)

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So--how do you feel that does not harmonize with other scriptures?

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

What is good is rewarded and what is bad burns up. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Which is exactly what faith alone theology claims one obtains eternal life through--a faith barren of works.

Straw man argument. I already explained to you multiple times that is false, but you only see and believe what you want to see and believe.

Then again--the faith alone have to concede it isn't genuine faith which one is saved through--as they claim it's a faith without works one obtains eternal life through.

Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain alone from the presence of works. I could probably explain that to you until I'm blue in the face, but you still won't get it and there is a reason for that.

It's that "empty profession of faith/dead faith"--one obtains eternal life through, in faith alone theology.

False. It's faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation -- one obtains eternal life through. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Now that we have been saved through faith, we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Opposite of remaining barren of works.

No one has claimed otherwise.

Yes you have. Now quit playing games and be honest.

Is this the proof of that?

1 John 3:7--King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Proof of what? Salvation by works? NO. Those who doth/practice righteousness do so BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous.

 

[MMDAN]

Is this the reason why Abraham received those promises?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes,

Yes, but how was Abraham justified before that? (Genesis 15:5-6) Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Are you claiming that excludes this obedience?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

More works salvation. Faith is belief, trust, reliance, confidence and obedience which "follows" is works. You obviously teach works salvation and remain in denial about it. Keeping the commandments is being compared to circumcision here and we are not saved by keeping the commandments, but it's the demonstrative evidence that we have come to know Him/already know Him/are already saved. (1 John 2:3)

 

[Bonnie]

hi MMDAN--I have put this down on here before, about what "obedience to faith" means in Christianity.

The Obedience Which Is Faith — Romans 1:5 and 16:26 – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

it summarizes:

CONCLUSION​

Jesus called for people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

So, you should not be bothered by the idea of faith as an act of obedience.

The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you’ve done that, you’ve exercised the obedience of faith.

When we believe the Gospel message, we are obeying God in Christ Jesus. Then we are made a new creation in Him, making us want to do what is good and right, and become obedient servants of the Word. But we do so IN salvation, nor FOR salvation, for who would want to obey a deity they had no faith in? And obedience of faith certainly does NOT mean obeying Mormon rules and regulations, like temple works!