Russell's Criticisms of Christianity & Jesus

4thrite

4thrite

Member
5wize said:
When we seek God we find ourselves looking down a deep well and seeing the vague reflection of a figure who looks suspiciously like ourselves.
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I accept that there is a "we" whose experience of "seeking God" is as you describe it.

Can you accept that there is a "we" whose experience of finding God is nothing like what you experienced?

john
 
4thrite

4thrite

Member
5wize said:
Then what is damnation in the eternal flame. How does that come about.
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It comes about from a misreading of scripture. Take for example Revelation 20:14 wherein it states that "death and hell" were cast into the lake of fire. What does that mean? With respect to death a look at Revelation 21:4 tells us what it means: death will be no more.

If you think of fire, even the concept of an eternally burning fire, that which can be burned by it, is burned up by it and ceases to exist.

That is why Jesus referenced the one who can destroy the soul in hell: Matthew 10:28.

Hell, (hades, sheol in Hebrew) in the Bible is a word that means grave as in the common end of all humans. Except that some translations render the word gehenna as hell. Gehenna was a reference to a literal place outside of the walls of Jerusalem where fires burned continually and where the bodies of those executed by the authorities of the time were disposed of.

john
 
4thrite

4thrite

Member
Hypatia_Alexandria said:
What is interesting is that in the first pages of this thread all the replies from Christians have not offered any defence against Russell's points as outlined by you. All they have managed to do is make silly comments or offer canting denouncements of Russell, or post peculiarly eccentric ideas about Plato and Esau.
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There are quite a number of responses most of which recognize that there is no need to defend Christianity against Russell. Russell set up a strawman "Christianity".

john
 
4thrite

4thrite

Member
Nouveau said:
Because you're engaging in a hominems after promising not to. You're not addressing Russell's arguments.

It seems no-one here is willing to defend Christianity against Russell's criticism.
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Russell set up a strawman. Then knocked it down. And, in doing so, he demonstrated that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to Christianity.

john
 
Tetsugaku

Tetsugaku

Well-known member
4thrite said:
Russell set up a strawman. Then knocked it down. And, in doing so, he demonstrated that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to Christianity.
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You haven't shown any strawmen. You're just repeating the claim instead of supporting it.
 
Electric Skeptic

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
cjab said:
True, but Christ himself told us why people would reject him, and he discounted pseudo intellectual arguments as cast by Russell. The reasons Christ gives includes "love for the world, delight in sin, lust etc."
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Which gives you a great out to ignore people's actual reasons and just assume that they don't want to give up their fun. Nice and easy, but hardly intellectually honest.
cjab said:
It may be more correct than you believe.
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And it may be less correct than you believe.
 
5

5wize

Well-known member
4thrite said:
In most cultures a son (or daughter), along with his (her) parents, who volunteers for a mission that may cost him his life are accorded a great deal of respect.

john
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Only if the purpose and method are worthy... otherwise we call it a fools errand. That's how atheists view slaughtering a son for a problem instigated at the creation and many of the faults being covered by Jesus's death insurance are minor. It's really nuts if you were to allow yourself to sit with this and think clearly about it.
 
5

5wize

Well-known member
4thrite said:
It comes about from a misreading of scripture. Take for example Revelation 20:14 wherein it states that "death and hell" were cast into the lake of fire. What does that mean? With respect to death a look at Revelation 21:4 tells us what it means: death will be no more.

If you think of fire, even the concept of an eternally burning fire, that which can be burned by it, is burned up by it and ceases to exist.

That is why Jesus referenced the one who can destroy the soul in hell: Matthew 10:28.

Hell, (hades, sheol in Hebrew) in the Bible is a word that means grave as in the common end of all humans. Except that some translations render the word gehenna as hell. Gehenna was a reference to a literal place outside of the walls of Jerusalem where fires burned continually and where the bodies of those executed by the authorities of the time were disposed of.

john
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So what are the wages of sin, specifically?
 
5

5wize

Well-known member
4thrite said:
I accept that there is a "we" whose experience of "seeking God" is as you describe it.

Can you accept that there is a "we" whose experience of finding God is nothing like what you experienced?

john
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We accept you believe this, but believe it is a conundrum for you as what you admit to above (differing beliefs/experiences) is a Res Ipsa Loquitur for us considering the whole issue of inconsistent outcomes yet an all powerful God that wants us to know Him. One of the faults we see in a belief that is required to ensure an eternity with God is a lack of consistency in being able to know this God, especially with the sword of Damocles hanging over one's head of eternal damnation. The Christian God is hidden, so much so that more than 1/2 the world rejects Him and within believers there are tens of thousands of arguments about what the requirements are to experience His eternal glory. The history of the early church is as ugly as it gets, murder, execution, torture... all to just forge a set a beliefs in an unseen. This cannot be where anything divine has staked a claim in such hearts.

Basically what you are asking us to believe is that you stumbled on the most important thing we will ever need to know and despite all the arguments and beliefs against that proposition - you somehow got it all going on. It reminds me of Gibran:

“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
 
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