Russell's Criticisms of Christianity & Jesus

4thrite

Member
... and humanity is damned forever?
Not according to scripture.
God knew Adam would eat the fruit; everything that happened was God's doing.
This is merely a belief, one not shared by all.
Neither Adam nor Eve did anything morally wrong; they couldn't have, because before they ate the fruit they had no knowledge of good and evil.
God told them what was right for them: don't eat of the tree. In eating they did what they knew to be wrong.

john
 

5wize

Well-known member
Not according to scripture.

This is merely a belief, one not shared by all.

God told them what was right for them: don't eat of the tree. In eating they did what they knew to be wrong.

john
Incoherent - right from wrong was not a human concept at the time. Disobedience was just a free will action allowed in the God design.
 

5wize

Well-known member
There are so many things to think about in regards to what you ask, so I will just state some of them and not elaborate

The way that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit inspired the written word is that it is always relevant, so that when you read the scriptures the wording seems as though it was written just to you in the present time in which you live, the theology of the Bible is timeless in spite of the culture being thousands of years old. To some people they mistakenly assume the Bible is an antiquated book that is out of date, however, just the opposite is true, the Bible is God's revelation of absolute truth for all of humanity for all time

Jesus spoke in plain language in the gospels up to the point the Jewish leaders rejected Him and from there on He spoke in ambiguous language and in parables (ref. Mark 4:10-12)

I would argue that the Apostles were not confused after the resurrection, it was then they began to see everything more clearly (John 2:22) and the New Testament letters they penned under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit testify to this (John 14:26)

Also there is blindness to truth that is a result of sin (2 Corinthians 4:4), which results in many people being confused or thinking something implies a certain conclusion when there is another point of view

The coming return of the Lord Jesus has always be imminent in Biblical anticipation while at the same time there were indications of delay, (ref. Matthew 24:48; Matthew 25:19; Luke 12:45; Luke 20:9; 2 Peter 3:9)

Prophecy is primary for determining who is the source of truth and knowledge, as God states in Isaiah 41:21-24, "Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," The King of Jacob says. Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, That we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming; Declare the things that are going to come afterward, That we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together. Behold, you are of no account, And your work amounts to nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination."

Yet, prophecy is very complicated and is misinterpreted and abused by many people. One rule of thumb is the law of non-contradiction, because God's revelation in the Bible presents itself as primary and authoratative therefore, if you hold any belief or opinion in regards to prophecy that is not consistent with the whole of Biblical prophecy, it must be recognized to be in error.

An example of prophecy in scripture being difficult is Daniel 11. Daniel 11 is so explicit up to verse 35 that the critics say Daniel had to be written late, yet from verse 36 on there is nothing in known history that fits right, so it must yet be future. This is the case with much of Jesus prophetic words in the Gospels, when is He addressing near events and when is He addressing end of the age events? That is why we study scripture, because it is like a puzzle and certain pieces have to be put in place before you can put others in.

Proverbs 25:2 states, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but it is the glory of Kings to search out a matter

Deuteronomy 29:29 states, God keeps the secret things to himself

Colossians 2:2-3, "That their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."




RCM
The best theory is that Jesus thought himself the Messiah of the nation of Israel, the earthly king of the Jews in the Maccabean vein. The answer to the prophesies thay all knew... no coincidence that his life would be an attempt at emulation. Thought to be a son of God (by birth, baptism, or ascension - the bible differs) he would survive any crucifixion.

That not having happened, and the kingdom not coming in the lifetime of those that stood before him, the cult scrambled for a new meaning. Paul was very open to that. You can see the progression from Mark thru John of a more supernatural and gentile reinterpretation of his death. John was so incredibly apocalyptic and obviously written to advance the growing supernatural narrative among followers that it is not included in the synoptics , but is seen even by scholars to stand alone as a rhetorical piece set apart from historical Christian literature.

Even the author tells you why he wrote it: "so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name”. None of it had to be true to be written for that purpose.
 
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BMS

Well-known member
It is not even "clear" that there will be an "end time", as the Bible depicts it.
No I don't accept that, I am amazed at this response from you after some of the thought provoking posts you have made so far. The Biblical testimony refers to the end time, the resurrection of the dead and the life to come a good deal. Sure it is not clear when, but actually it says that as well.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
No I don't accept that, I am amazed at this response from you after some of the thought provoking posts you have made so far. The Biblical testimony refers to the end time, the resurrection of the dead and the life to come a good deal.
Yes.
I meant that we do not know that this will actually happen.
 

5wize

Well-known member
No I don't accept that, I am amazed at this response from you after some of the thought provoking posts you have made so far. The Biblical testimony refers to the end time, the resurrection of the dead and the life to come a good deal. Sure it is not clear when, but actually it says that as well.
There are 2 parts to the eschatology. 1) The tribulation brought on by the Messiah of the Jews - a human king and liberator of the Maccabean vein, and 2) the kingdom brought on by the son of man. 2 different entities that were attempted to be converged into one Jesus over time as the gospels reflected the evolving thinking of this ancient prophesy across the first century.

Matthew 24:34 is very clear that all the things that Jesus spoke of in chapter 24 will come to pass before those that stood before him die. He may not know the exact hour, but he knew by when. Any other interpretation becomes an exercise in force fitting, just like Paul had to do as he reinvented the meaning of the prophesy for a sect left wondering what just happened. Why did their Messiah die?

The entire eschatology has its roots in the Jewish Gnostic tradition that tries to explain why the chosen have been forsaken and why the righteous suffer while the wicked prosper. A future kingdom where God does rule was what they came up with and a Messiah that would make Babylon tremble (later depicted as Rome).
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
You didn't answer the question.
Sorry but I DID.

BEFORE you're born again, you KNOW NOTHING, and the "Kingdom of God" is invisible to you - just like it was to the apostles, who really didn't have a CLUE what was going on - until Jesus ministered the Holy Spirit to them at at John 20:22.

AFTER you're Born AGain, you can actually comprehend the realities of the Scriptures, and begin to generate a REAL set of beliefs.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Sorry but I DID.
No Bob, you did not. Here's the question again:

Do you think one can be a Christian either without believing in God, without believing in any afterlife, or without believing Jesus to have at least been the best and wisest of men?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
No, philosophy is in trouble when it attempts to formulate an argument in relation to God when philosophy is ignorant regarding Biblical truth

If you would have taken time to analyze the post, you would have seen that Euthyphro's dilemma does not represent Biblical truth
This doesn't resolve Euthyphro's Dilemma. All you did was deny both horns without showing that any other option remains.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
When Russell or anyone else chooses to doubt or be skeptical of truth that God has declared, whether they know it or not, they are aligning themselves with satan who was the first to cast doubt and deny the truth of what God had said (Genesis 3; John 8:44)

Furthermore, when a person like Russell is a big enough skeptic that they propagate their doubt about what God has said through lectures or writings, they are calling God a liar
This is silly. Denying someone's existence is not the same as calling them a liar. To call someone a liar requires acknowledging their existence. You're not actually addressing his point, which was that real-world injustice doesn't rationally justify belief in post-world justice to redress the balance.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I'll say this much for Russell:

At least he was willing to make his ignorance of the Bible and Christianity public.

And in analyzing what he believes, he's really no different than any unbeliever today.

In short, he's just a poster child for ignorance.
Unsupported.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
A law (or rule or principle) is a statement that summarizes an observed regularity or pattern in nature, like the law of heredity

A scientific theory is a set of statements that, when taken together, attempt to explain a broad class of related phenomena that no one has observed in empirical reality. A theory is an attempt to provide an explanatory answer (why) that fits the evidence that so called knowledgeable experts accept as fact

The so called knowledgeable experts then propagate the theory of evolution as fact when the law of heredity, which is observable, stands in complete contradiction
You still haven't told me what you mean by the 'law of heredity'.

Again, to think that theories transmogrify into facts over time is a category error. Theories are there to explain the facts.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Settled science? Don't make me laugh
And yet evolution is settled science, so in rejecting it you may well be putting yourself in the category of corrupt rather than true Christianity by impeding progress.

Science cannot even answer the questions of a child nor the most important questions in life
The Bible answers all of the above questions in correlation with reality and with no contradictions
Answers are easy. True answers take more effort.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
There are so many things to think about in regards to what you ask, so I will just state some of them and not elaborate

The way that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit inspired the written word is that it is always relevant, so that when you read the scriptures the wording seems as though it was written just to you in the present time in which you live, the theology of the Bible is timeless in spite of the culture being thousands of years old. To some people they mistakenly assume the Bible is an antiquated book that is out of date, however, just the opposite is true, the Bible is God's revelation of absolute truth for all of humanity for all time

Jesus spoke in plain language in the gospels up to the point the Jewish leaders rejected Him and from there on He spoke in ambiguous language and in parables (ref. Mark 4:10-12)

I would argue that the Apostles were not confused after the resurrection, it was then they began to see everything more clearly (John 2:22) and the New Testament letters they penned under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit testify to this (John 14:26)

Also there is blindness to truth that is a result of sin (2 Corinthians 4:4), which results in many people being confused or thinking something implies a certain conclusion when there is another point of view

The coming return of the Lord Jesus has always be imminent in Biblical anticipation while at the same time there were indications of delay, (ref. Matthew 24:48; Matthew 25:19; Luke 12:45; Luke 20:9; 2 Peter 3:9)

Prophecy is primary for determining who is the source of truth and knowledge, as God states in Isaiah 41:21-24, "Present your case," the LORD says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," The King of Jacob says. Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, That we may consider them and know their outcome. Or announce to us what is coming; Declare the things that are going to come afterward, That we may know that you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together. Behold, you are of no account, And your work amounts to nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination."

Yet, prophecy is very complicated and is misinterpreted and abused by many people. One rule of thumb is the law of non-contradiction, because God's revelation in the Bible presents itself as primary and authoratative therefore, if you hold any belief or opinion in regards to prophecy that is not consistent with the whole of Biblical prophecy, it must be recognized to be in error.

An example of prophecy in scripture being difficult is Daniel 11. Daniel 11 is so explicit up to verse 35 that the critics say Daniel had to be written late, yet from verse 36 on there is nothing in known history that fits right, so it must yet be future. This is the case with much of Jesus prophetic words in the Gospels, when is He addressing near events and when is He addressing end of the age events? That is why we study scripture, because it is like a puzzle and certain pieces have to be put in place before you can put others in.

Proverbs 25:2 states, it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but it is the glory of Kings to search out a matter

Deuteronomy 29:29 states, God keeps the secret things to himself

Colossians 2:2-3, "That their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
Okay, but you still have Jesus putting forth a message that inspired 2,000yrs of disagreement and division, and was misleading even to his disciples that he was speaking to. I maintain that this is inconsistent with him being the best and wisest of men.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
No Bob, you did not. Here's the question again:

Do you think one can be a Christian either without believing in God, without believing in any afterlife, or without believing Jesus to have at least been the best and wisest of men?
Unimportant. Whatever humanistic foolishness a person "Believes" is immediately ERASED/RESET, when they come face to face with God through the Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. And only AFTER being Born again of the Holy Spirit are they even CAPABLE of realistic belief set.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Unimportant. Whatever humanistic foolishness a person "Believes" is immediately ERASED/RESET, when they come face to face with God through the Holy Spirit in conviction of sin. And only AFTER being Born again of the Holy Spirit are they even CAPABLE of realistic belief set.
You're still dodging the question. Obviously you're not able to actually address what Russell is saying, so your response is off-topic and irrelevant here.
 
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