Russia withdraws from Lyman, city in annexed region

vibise

Well-known member
Russian military strategy is to withdraw when necessary to preserve their fighting force. In contrast, western armies tend to try to hold territory at all cost, even if that strategy results in the destruction of their armies.

In 1812, the Russians kept withdrawing and burning the fields behind them. Napoleon started his campaign with an army of over 500,000 men. Virtually the entire French army was destroyed even though Napoleon took Moscow.

The German army faced similar fate in WW2. Hitler ordered German army to hold Stalingrad at all cost. The resulting destruction of the German army reversed the tide of the war.

Russia is moving large numbers of reinforcements to Ukraine. During WW2, the Soviets launched offensives during the winter.

The real question is how much of Ukraine will be left come spring?
If Ukraine capitulates to Russia, none of it will be left.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Russian military strategy is to withdraw when necessary to preserve their fighting force.
Except they really didn't. Most of their forces in this area were captured or killed, as well as much of their equipment.
In contrast, western armies tend to try to hold territory at all cost, even if that strategy results in the destruction of their armies.

In 1812, the Russians kept withdrawing and burning the fields behind them. Napoleon started his campaign with an army of over 500,000 men. Virtually the entire French army was destroyed even though Napoleon took Moscow.

The German army faced similar fate in WW2. Hitler ordered German army to hold Stalingrad at all cost. The resulting destruction of the German army reversed the tide of the war.

Russia is moving large numbers of reinforcements to Ukraine. During WW2, the Soviets launched offensives during the winter.
You forget that Ukraine was part of that (the ones not genocided by the Soviets in the Holodomor) This isn't Germany, they know how to fight in the winter too. Plus they have the homeland advantage that Russia had against Germany.
The real question is how much of Ukraine will be left come spring?
Most of it. Russia is running out of munitions and weapons. They are now using inferior Iranian drones. They can't obtain much for new munitions because most countries won't sell, even China is backing away from them. And they certainly don't have the resources currently to replace them as fast as they are using them or losing them.
 

Theophilos

Active member
If Ukraine capitulates to Russia, none of it will be left.
Ukraine would be out of ammunition and unable to pay its soldiers without the massive US aid. The reality is that government in Kyiv is nothing more than an American puppet.

At this point, any settlement would require concessions that would be an existential threat to the egos and careers of the neo-cons in Washington. Washington would much rather send Ukrainian men to their deaths than negotiate an end to the war.

If Ukraine continues to fight, it is likely that a generation or two of Ukrainian men will be either killed or suffer permanent injury. The last time something similar happened in the west was during WW1.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Ukraine would be out of ammunition and unable to pay its soldiers without the massive US aid.
Aid that we promised them when we convinced them to give up their nukes. Russia reneged on that same agreement the moment they began their genocidal assault.
The reality is that government in Kyiv is nothing more than an American puppet.
*yawn*
At this point, any settlement would require concessions that would be an existential threat to the egos and careers of the neo-cons in Washington. Washington would much rather send Ukrainian men to their deaths than negotiate an end to the war.
The only concessions right now are ones that will need to come from Russia, which is in pretty steady retreat and in very poor shape militarily. And Russia's citizens sure ain't interested in helping their idiotic war - huge numbers are fleeing the draft attempts.
If Ukraine continues to fight, it is likely that a generation or two of Ukrainian men will be either killed or suffer permanent injury. The last time something similar happened in the west was during WW1.
Ukraine is not remeotely in as bad a shape militarily as Russia, sorry bud.
 

Reepicheep

Well-known member
It appears the next massive Ukrainian breakthrough will be happening in the South. There are many reports that the Ukrainian armed forces have advanced 25 miles into occupied Russian territory today. The only hope for thousands of Russian soldiers is an immediate retreat, which will again result in huge amounts of Russian armor and ammunition being left behind.

More specifically: from what I can determine, Ukraine has made two significant advances today into the district of Kherson, with the goal of isolating the City of Kherson and trapping the thousands of Russian soldiers occupying the city. The situation will likely be made clear in another day or two, but it certainly appears this southern breakthrough will be as significant as the northern breakthrough at Kharkov.
 

vibise

Well-known member
Ukraine would be out of ammunition and unable to pay its soldiers without the massive US aid. The reality is that government in Kyiv is nothing more than an American puppet.

At this point, any settlement would require concessions that would be an existential threat to the egos and careers of the neo-cons in Washington. Washington would much rather send Ukrainian men to their deaths than negotiate an end to the war.

If Ukraine continues to fight, it is likely that a generation or two of Ukrainian men will be either killed or suffer permanent injury. The last time something similar happened in the west was during WW1.
If your idea of negotiation is to turn over much of eastern Ukraine to Putin as a reward for his unjustified invasion, that is not acceptable to anyone but Putin fans.
 

Harry Leggs

Super Member
Ukraine would be out of ammunition and unable to pay its soldiers without the massive US aid. The reality is that government in Kyiv is nothing more than an American puppet.

At this point, any settlement would require concessions that would be an existential threat to the egos and careers of the neo-cons in Washington. Washington would much rather send Ukrainian men to their deaths than negotiate an end to the war.

If Ukraine continues to fight, it is likely that a generation or two of Ukrainian men will be either killed or suffer permanent injury. The last time something similar happened in the west was during WW1.
Everybody thinks the USA is responsible for the Nord Stream pipeline damage. Bottom

 

Theophilos

Active member
Except they really didn't. Most of their forces in this area were captured or killed, as well as much of their equipment.
Yes, if you can't trust the people who brought us the mythical "ghost of Kiev" who can you trust?
You forget that Ukraine was part of that (the ones not genocided by the Soviets in the Holodomor) This isn't Germany, they know how to fight in the winter too. Plus they have the homeland advantage that Russia had against Germany.
I am very familiar with Ukrainian history. Millions of Ukrainians were killed as a result of Communist oppression. What people forget is that millions of ethnic Russians also died as well.

A large part of the Russian fighting force is from the annexed areas of Ukraine. The local militia is far more familiar with the territory than Ukrainian conscripts from Kyiv or western Ukraine.
Most of it. Russia is running out of munitions and weapons. They are now using inferior Iranian drones. They can't obtain much for new munitions because most countries won't sell, even China is backing away from them. And they certainly don't have the resources currently to replace them as fast as they are using them or losing them.
Yes, a recurring theme in western media has been that Russia is almost out of munitions. Here is an article from March.

Russia has demonstrated enormous capacity in producing artillery shells, far beyond what the US is capable of. Meanwhile Ukraine has already depleted NATO stocks of munitions.

US annual artillery production would at best only last for 10 days to two weeks of combat in Ukraine.

The US was the arsenal of democracy in WW2, but the US has gutted that capacity in favor of cheap imports from China. Russia has apparently kept its capacity.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Yes, if you can trust the people who brought us the mythical "ghost of Kiev" who can you trust?
Never heard of psychological warfare, eh?

And the information comes from military analysts, not Ukraine.
I am very familiar with Ukrainian history. Millions of Ukrainians were killed as a result of Communist oppression. What people forget is that millions of ethnic Russians also died as well.
And now Russia is doing it again. BTW, those ethnic Russians were the victims of Russia's leveling of an entire city that had the largest russian-speaking population in the country just a few months ago.
A large part of the Russian fighting force is from the annexed areas of Ukraine. The local militia is far more familiar with the territory than Ukrainian conscripts from Kyiv or western Ukraine.
Some of the militia is, certainly. But they aren't many.

Yes, a recurring theme in western media has been that Russia is almost out of munitions. Here is an article from March.
Russia has demonstrated enormous capacity in producing artillery shells, far beyond what the US is capable of. Meanwhile Ukraine has already depleted NATO stocks of munitions.
Russia has very little capacity, especially with the financial restraints being placed on them
The US was the arsenal of democracy in WW2, but the US has gutted that capacity in favor of cheap imports from China. Russia has apparently kept its capacity.
No, no it hasn't.
 

Theophilos

Active member
Never heard of psychological warfare, eh?
Most of the "news" in western media has been nothing more than propaganda from Kyiv or Washington.

Consider the hype about Lyman. The town is now a major strategic center, but when Russia captured it on May 27, western media barely mentioned it all.

Will Lyman go back to being of little to no importance when Russia retakes the town?
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Most of the "news" in western media has been nothing more than propaganda from Kyiv or Washington.

Consider the hype about Lyman. The town is now a major strategic center, but when Russia captured it on May 27, western media barely mentioned it all.

Will Lyman go back to being of little to no importance when Russia retakes the town?
Yes, it's mentioned now because it was one of the areas that Putin illegally 'annexed', and then he lost it the next day.

Russia isn't going to retake it, because they're in full retreat mode.

Even Putin's own allies are mocking and ridiculing the current state of the Russian forces and occupied territory.

 

Harry Leggs

Super Member
Yes, if you can't trust the people who brought us the mythical "ghost of Kiev" who can you trust?

I am very familiar with Ukrainian history. Millions of Ukrainians were killed as a result of Communist oppression. What people forget is that millions of ethnic Russians also died as well.

A large part of the Russian fighting force is from the annexed areas of Ukraine. The local militia is far more familiar with the territory than Ukrainian conscripts from Kyiv or western Ukraine.

Yes, a recurring theme in western media has been that Russia is almost out of munitions. Here is an article from March.

Russia has demonstrated enormous capacity in producing artillery shells, far beyond what the US is capable of. Meanwhile Ukraine has already depleted NATO stocks of munitions.



The US was the arsenal of democracy in WW2, but the US has gutted that capacity in favor of cheap imports from China. Russia has apparently kept its capacity.
Then there is this

 

Theophilos

Active member
Yes, it's mentioned now because it was one of the areas that Putin illegally 'annexed', and then he lost it the next day.

Russia isn't going to retake it, because they're in full retreat mode.

Even Putin's own allies are mocking and ridiculing the current state of the Russian forces and occupied territory.

Western media cover every hiccough in Russia while ignoring the growing problems in the west.

The NATO sanctions were supposed to crash Russia's currency, destroy its economy, and cause regime change. The reality is that the self-inflicted embargo on Russian energy is causing those problems in NATO countries. Consider these reports from the UK:

The British pound is at historic lows compared to the US dollar (1 GBP = 1.12 USD). The conversion compared to the ruble has gone from over 100 rubles/gbp to only 65 since early February.


Britons are protesting and burning their utility bills as the country faces sky-rocketing fuel costs, energy shortages, and blackouts this winter:


The new PM just did a 180 after her plans nearly bankrupted British pension plans. Only massive intervention by the Bank of England avoided immediate collapse. Her Conservative party is now more than 30 points behind the opposition Labour.

 
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Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Western media cover every hiccough in Russia while ignoring the growing problems in the west.
These are far beyond hiccups Russia is dealing with. They're running out of weapons, and being run out of even the territory they tried to illegally annex, and even their own people do not want anything to do with their attempted genocide of the Ukrainians and are fleeing the attempts by Putin to get new people to sacrifice to his cause. And now his own allies are ridiculing his losses.
The NATO sanctions were supposed to crash Russia's currency, destroy its economy, and cause regime change. The reality is that the self-inflicted embargo on Russian energy is causing those problems in NATO countries. Consider these reports from the UK:

The British pound is at historic lows compared to the US dollar (1 GBP = 1.12 USD). The conversion compared to the ruble has gone from over 100 rubles/gbp to only 65 now.


Britons are protesting and burning their utility bills as the country faces sky-rocketing fuel costs, energy shortages, and blackouts this winter:


The new PM just did a 180 after her plans nearly bankrupted British pension plans. Only massive intervention by the Bank of England avoided immediate collapse. Her Conservative party is now more than 30 points behind the opposition Labour.

Lookit you changing the subject.

Hate to tell you but that's due to inflation caused by the out of control spending of Covid, not due to Russia, hun.
 

Theophilos

Active member
These are far beyond hiccups Russia is dealing with. They're running out of weapons, and being run out of even the territory they tried to illegally annex, and even their own people do not want anything to do with their attempted genocide of the Ukrainians and are fleeing the attempts by Putin to get new people to sacrifice to his cause. And now his own allies are ridiculing his losses.

Lookit you changing the subject.

Hate to tell you but that's due to inflation caused by the out of control spending of Covid, not due to Russia, hun.
Yes, COVID spending resulted a huge spree of printing money, but inflation in western nations has been accelerating since the NATO sanctions even though COVID spending has been ending.

The UK is looking at a recession combined with an inflation rate near 20% this winter, and those estimates were before the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines.

The sanctions war is at least as important as anything going on the battlefield. Ukraine is stuck in the crossfire of a proxy war between Russia and NATO, and NATO is losing the sanctions war at this point.
 
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Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Yes, COVID spending resulted a huge spree of printing money, but inflation in western nations has been accelerating since the NATO sanctions even though COVID spending has been ending.

The UK is looking at a recession combined with an inflation rate near 20% this winter, and those estimates were before the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines.

The sanctions war is at least as important as anything going on the battlefield. Ukraine is stuck in the crossfire of a proxy war between Russia and NATO, and NATO is losing the sanctions war at this point.
Even Russia State TV is having a hard time with Putin and his utter losses. https://www.yahoo.com/news/frustration-ukraine-war-spills-russian-205845140.html
 

Carol

Well-known member
"Fake" in this context, is anyone that lives in a Putin-annexed region that continues claim their Ukrainian nationality as their own.

How many do you think there are?

The word "fake" is the correct term here because Putin cannot force a person to be a Russian citizen even if Putin thinks he has the power to do so.

You think that's what he thinks?

Analogy:

Because Trump thinks that a document marked classified, becomes unclassified the moment he thinks it's unclassified, doesn't mean it's content instantly becomes unclassified if its content remains unchanged.

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