Sad article about abuse of nuns in convents

[Bonnie]

I saw this just now in Yahoo news, but it is originally from Reuters:

Catholic nuns lift veil on abuse in convents

When young nuns at a convent in Eastern Europe told their Mother Superior that a priest had tried to molest them, she retorted that it was probably their fault for "provoking him". When African nuns in Minnesota asked why it was always they who had to shovel snow they were told it was because...

news.yahoo.com

In 2018, the Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano exposed the plight of foreign nuns sent by their orders to work as housekeepers for cardinals and bishops in Rome with little or no remuneration.

It later chronicled a "burnout" syndrome, where younger women with good educations were held back by older superiors reluctant to relinquish a boot camp-style tradition of assigning them menial tasks, ostensibly to instil discipline and obedience.

Philip Pullella
Mon, November 29, 2021, 5:24 AM·3 min read


By Philip Pullella
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - When young nuns at a convent in Eastern Europe told their Mother Superior that a priest had tried to molest them, she retorted that it was probably their fault for "provoking him".
When African nuns in Minnesota asked why it was always they who had to shovel snow they were told it was because they were young and strong, even though white sisters of the same age lived there too.

As the Roman Catholic Church pays more attention to the closed world of convents, where women spend much of their time in prayer and household work, more episodes of psychological, emotional and physical abuse are coming to light.
A new book, "Veil of Silence" by Salvatore Cernuzio, a journalist for the Vatican's online outlet, Vatican News, is the latest expose to come from within and approved by authorities.

Cernuzio recounts experiences of 11 women and their struggles with an age-old system where the Mother Superior and older nuns demand total obedience, in some cases resulting in acts of cruelty and humiliation.
Marcela, a South American woman who joined an order of cloistered nuns in Italy 20 years ago when she was 19, recounts how the indoctrination was so strict that younger sisters needed permission to go to the bathroom and ask for sanitary products during their menstrual periods.

"You are always complaining! Do you want to be a saint or not?" Marcela, who later left the convent, quotes the Mother Superior as shouting when she suggested changes in the daily routine.
Therese, a French woman, was told "you have to suffer for Jesus" when she asked to be spared physically demanding chores because of a back condition.
"I understood that we were all like dogs," recounted Elizabeth, an Australian. "They tell us to sit and we sit, to get up and we get up, to roll over and we roll over."

BURNOUT SYNDROME
Last year, Father Giovanni Cucci wrote a landmark article about abuse in convents in the Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica, whose texts are approved by the Vatican.

He found that most of it was abuse of power, including episodes of racism such as in the Minnesota convent. Cucci said the problem needed more attention because it had been overshadowed by the sexual abuse of children by priests.
In 2018, the Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano exposed the plight of foreign nuns sent by their orders to work as housekeepers for cardinals and bishops in Rome with little or no remuneration.
It later chronicled a "burnout" syndrome, where younger women with good educations were held back by older superiors reluctant to relinquish a boot camp-style tradition of assigning them menial tasks, ostensibly to instill discipline and obedience.

"Whatever may have worked in a pyramidal, authoritarian context of relationships before is no longer desirable or liveable," wrote Sister Nathalie Becquart, a French member of the Xaviere Missionary Sisters and one of the highest-ranking women in the Vatican.
Becquart wrote in the book's preface of the "cries and sufferings" of women who entered convents because they felt a calling from God but later left because their complaints too often fell on deaf ears.

I know not all convents are like this, but this is certainly...sad and disturbing.

 

[balshan]

I saw this just now in Yahoo news, but it is originally from Reuters:

Catholic nuns lift veil on abuse in convents

When young nuns at a convent in Eastern Europe told their Mother Superior that a priest had tried to molest them, she retorted that it was probably their fault for "provoking him". When African nuns in Minnesota asked why it was always they who had to shovel snow they were told it was because...

news.yahoo.com

I know not all convents are like this, but this is certainly...sad and disturbing.

It is extremely disturbing. But not the first time this has been revealed.

Pope Francis has admitted that clerics have sexually abused nuns, and in one case they were kept as sex slaves.
He said in that case his predecessor, Pope Benedict, was forced to shut down an entire congregation of nuns who were being abused by priests.

Pope admits clerical abuse of nuns including sexual slavery

Pope Francis admits nuns have been sexually abused by clerics - and it is an ongoing problem.

www.bbc.com

But this will be covered up and put in the look over there they do it too basket. But there is a problem not many other denominations have nuns.

The Vatican has acknowledged for the first time the existence of secret guidelines for priests who break their vows of celibacy and father children.

Vatican reveals it has secret rules for priests who father children

Spokesman says guidelines for those who break celibacy vows will not be made public

www.theguardian.com

The RCC is filled with sins of the flesh that have been ignored by them. They ignore Paul on what to do with sexual sinners and thus the problems grow. They have hidden them for centuries instead of dealing with them.

 

[Southsider071]

It is extremely disturbing. But not the first time this has been revealed.

Pope Francis has admitted that clerics have sexually abused nuns, and in one case they were kept as sex slaves.
He said in that case his predecessor, Pope Benedict, was forced to shut down an entire congregation of nuns who were being abused by priests.

Pope admits clerical abuse of nuns including sexual slavery

Pope Francis admits nuns have been sexually abused by clerics - and it is an ongoing problem.

www.bbc.com

But this will be covered up and put in the look over there they do it too basket. But there is a problem not many other denominations have nuns.

The Vatican has acknowledged for the first time the existence of secret guidelines for priests who break their vows of celibacy and father children.

Vatican reveals it has secret rules for priests who father children

Spokesman says guidelines for those who break celibacy vows will not be made public

www.theguardian.com

The RCC is filled with sins of the flesh that have been ignored by them. They ignore Paul on what to do with sexual sinners and thus the problems grow. They have hidden them for centuries instead of dealing with them.

The RCC has allowed priests to escape their child support obligations by allowing them to take a "vow of poverty" that prevents them from paying their monthly obligations.

I saw a case a number of years ago where the father- an RC priest-continued earning zero dollars while the mum raised their kid in poverty.

Disgraceful, IMHO. The priest should have been ordered to get a paying job, regardless of his "vow of poverty", and pony up like any other man in the same position. He may have taken that "vow" but the baby's mother and the baby didn't.

 

[balshan]

The RCC has allowed priests to escape their child support obligations by allowing them to take a "vow of poverty" that prevents them from paying their monthly obligations.

I saw a case a number of years ago where the father- an RC priest-continued earning zero dollars while the mum raised their kid in poverty.

Disgraceful, IMHO. The priest should have been ordered to get a paying job, regardless of his "vow of poverty", and pony up like any other man in the same position. He may have taken that "vow" but the baby's mother and the baby didn't.

That is the truth, the never do the penance suggested in the catechism which is make amends. They never make amends. But understandable really they do not know what repentance truly is.

 

[cjab]

The RCC is filled with sins of the flesh that have been ignored by them. They ignore Paul on what to do with sexual sinners and thus the problems grow. They have hidden them for centuries instead of dealing with them.

That's because "'Sins of the flesh are not the most serious."

Pope Francis says sex outside marriage is 'not the most serious' sin

'Sins of the flesh are not the most serious,' the 84-year-old pontiff said during a press conference aboard the papal plane on the way back to the Vatican from Greece Monday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[balshan]

That's because "'Sins of the flesh are not the most serious."

Pope Francis says sex outside marriage is 'not the most serious' sin

'Sins of the flesh are not the most serious,' the 84-year-old pontiff said during a press conference aboard the papal plane on the way back to the Vatican from Greece Monday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

My goodness

 

[RiJoRi]

Humans quantify sin ("this sin is worse than that one"). I don't think God does. And when you get down to it, isn't all sin prIde?

--Rich

 

[balshan]

Humans quantify sin ("this sin is worse than that one"). I don't think God does. And when you get down to it, isn't all sin prIde?

--Rich

I agree all sin comes from pride. God says if you break one commandment you break them all, so He does not quantify sin. Sin is being out of relationship with God.

 

[cjab]

As far as I'm concerned, abuse of nuns consists in putting them in convents. That the RCC even maintains convents is preposterous, a legacy from the idea that holiness was associated with virginity, which derived orginally from the ascetic and idolatrous practices of Roman paganism.

"Neo-Platonists, lived a rigorously ascetic
life, rejecting marriage, eating as litde as possible, and seeming to be
ashamed of his body. Also, the Salian priests, the cult of the Magn.a
Mater, the Seven of ilie Banquets, the cult of Bona Dea, and the
Fifteen in charge of ilie Sibylline Books were among the Roman
religious institutions and priesthoods whose responsibilities and
societies later influenced Christian ascetic practice".

"From Vestal Virgin to Bride of Christ: Elements of a Roman Cult in
Early Christian AsceticismEarly Christian Asceticism"

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=studiaantiqua

Virginity was perpetuated by the Latin early church, by a kind of psuedo Manichaean fanaticism, linked to the cult of the virgin Mary.

"Those who decide to marry . .. must of necessity
confess that they are inferior to virgins," wrote Ambrose.
Augustine also perpetuated tlus idea in hi s treatise On the Good of
Widowhood, where he praised the young Roman girl Denlitrias for
choosing to dedicate her life to virginity. He extols her above her
own mother, Juliana. "[She], coming after you in birth, has gone
before you in conduct; descended from you in lineage has risen
above you in honor; following you in age has gone before you in
holiness .. . spiritually enriched in a higher degree tjan yourself,
since, even with tlus augmentation, you are inferior to her." Thus,
the new ideology was that to be of the holier part of the church, it
was implicit that a girl dedicate her life to chastity and virginity. As
the Vestal Virgins, who had to be more pure than others to serve
their deity, the virginal Christian woman became more pure and
holy than those married around her."

"The virginity of both the Vestals and many Christians women
was seen as a personal sacrifice made for the good of the entire
commututy in which they lived"

"Like the Vestal Virgins, the Christian ascetics achieved ilieir
power and privilege by not fitting into categorical norms. These
women asserted autonomy and self-control by purposely not fitting
into traditional gender roles through making vows of celibacy as the
Virgins had. In rejecting marriage, they rejected those paradigms
wluch defined them in Roman society. Marriage was seen as a social,
familial, and legal necessity in late-imperial Rome-a daughter's
very reason for existence was to marry and have children, so as to
assure the preservation of private property."

"Accompanying Consequences

This hybrid gender construct was, as has been shown, extreme-
ly complex and difficult to create. Its very existence was a distur-
bance to normal social patterns. Membership came only with sig-
nificant sacrifice but won great status and privilege. However, if a
Vestal Virgin or a Christian ascetic renounced her vow to celibacy,
the punishments for the loss of virginity were severe."

"For the Christian virgins, the consequences of lost chastity
were serious as well. They were subject to Augustan law and its pun-
ishments, but since they were not legally married, did not qualify as
adulteresses in the case of lost virginity in secular courts. However,
the fall of a virgin was considered adultery within the church.
St. Matthew recorded the words of Jesus Christ taking a hard posi-
tion against adultery in his gospel. "Thou shalt not commit adultery.
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her had1 committed adultery wid1 her already in his heart"
(Niatt. 5:27-28). A virgin was a "spouse of Christ and a holy vessel
dedicated to the Lord." For her to betray her Husband was the
gravest and worst of sins! The church itself had no power to inflict
capital punishment. Its course of action for adultery was excom-
munication, perhaps a more terrifying prospect for a faithful
Christian woman. Disfellowshipped from among Christ's followers
on earth and denied the sacraments and ordinances of the church,
only endless torment awaited her after she died. Her crime was so
severe that repentance was impossible. "

 

[Lion IRC]

I would like to see something official showing that these (alleged) offences are permissible in Church law.

We should not conflate the occurrence of sinful/criminal behaviour with the false claim that this shows such behaviour is officially permissible.

Also, noteworthy is that nothing in church law prevents a person from reporting alleged crimes to the police - instead of telling a journalist.

 

[balshan]

I would like to see something official showing that these (alleged) offences are permissible in Church law.

We should not conflate the occurrence of sinful/criminal behaviour with the false claim that this shows such behaviour is officially permissible.

Also, noteworthy is that nothing in church law prevents a person from reporting alleged crimes to the police - instead of telling a journalist.

It does not matter whether it is official in church law or not. I love the use of alleged offences, I mean the courts have convicted so many priests of sexual sins already. The pope made an apology to the nuns but you still love to cover them up with the use of the word alleged. We should understand that hiding the sinful/criminal behaviour shows it was acceptable whether it is official in church law or not. Yes those crimes should have been reported but were not. I mean the Royal Commission showed that every child molesting abusing priests was know by 7 or 8 others in leaders and that included the local bishop. What you are doing is helping in the cover ups by making out the claims are false and that the behaviour is not officially permissible. This is part of the problem.

Scripture is clear sin is to be exposed those who know of sin and do not expose it are then part of that sin.

 

[Lion IRC]

The pope made an apology to the nuns

Why would the pope apologize if the church sees nothing wrong with clergy sex abuse?

It's either bad people doing sinful/criminal stuff that the RCC condemns - in which case there are bad ppl in every organisation and singling out the RCC is polemic hypocrisy.

...or those sex abusers have the official consent of those in charge. (Which many anti-catholics allege.) And I see no evidence to support this claim.

 

[Lion IRC]

And, I'm doubling down on my correct use of the word 'alleged'.

Even sworn statements made to the police, or evidence given under oath is still just an allegation until found to be proven.

Unsubstantiated claims made to a journalist - especially anonymous claims against unnamed perpetrators - are in the category of gossip as far as I'm concerned.

 

[balshan]

Why would the pope apologize if the church sees nothing wrong with clergy sex abuse?

It's either bad people doing sinful/criminal stuff that the RCC condemns - in which case there are bad ppl in every organisation and singling out the RCC is polemic hypocrisy.

...or those sex abusers have the official consent of those in charge. (Which many anti-catholics allege.) And I see no evidence to support this claim.

To make the institution look better but if they really cared they would have stopped it. No matter how much you say it is bad people, the bad people are the fruit the tree produces. It is not a building. The tree is people. A good tree never produces bad fruit.

Really the consent is the fact they just moved those priests from parish to parish, they did not excommunicate them. The hypocrisy of the RCC ex communicate women who have abortions now that is showing they do not agree with the actions. Yet how were sexually sinning priests treated just moved from parish to parish. You are kidding yourself if you think it is not approved.

 

[balshan]

And, I'm doubling down on my correct use of the word 'alleged'.

Even sworn statements made to the police, or evidence given under oath is still just an allegation until found to be proven.

Unsubstantiated claims made to a journalist - especially anonymous claims against unnamed perpetrators - are in the category of gossip as far as I'm concerned.

No you are doubling down on trying to cover up the sins by using the word alleged. You know these things happened, the pope knows they happened, the courts have sent many to prison. You think using the word alleged makes them not so. Good luck with that.

 

[Lion IRC]

Are we staying on topic per the Op (nuns being expected to obediently perform menial tasks and harsh mother superiors causing "burnout" for Sister Maria Von Trapp) or are you trying to smuggle in pedophiles masquerading as clergy?

 

[balshan]

Are we staying on topic per the Op (nuns being expected to obediently perform menial tasks and harsh mother superiors causing "burnout" for Sister Maria Von Trapp) or are you trying to smuggle in pedophiles masquerading as clergy?

All sexual sin is abuse, not smuggling in anything at all. All abuse comes into the topic. All abuse " cases resulting in acts of cruelty and humiliation". The abuse of the flock is something you institution tries so hard to cover up, whether officially approved or not. In all cases it is humiliating and cruel. It needs to be seen in all its forms so that the cover ups are exposed and not hidden.

The op makes a point of one type of abuse covering up another, so it needs to be all exposed at the same time in every written piece about the topic. How one is hidden up and handled reveals how the other is hidden and handled.

From the op:

He found that most of it was abuse of power, including episodes of racism such as in the Minnesota convent. Cucci said the problem needed more attention because it had been overshadowed by the sexual abuse of children by priests.

 

[cjab]

It's either bad people doing sinful/criminal stuff that the RCC condemns - in which case there are bad ppl in every organisation and singling out the RCC is polemic hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy, because it's the church's duty to excommunicate sinners and admit only true believers. Both of these scriptural exhortations the RCC declines to adhere to, which is hypocrisy in itself.

 

[romishpopishorganist]

I saw this just now in Yahoo news, but it is originally from Reuters:

Catholic nuns lift veil on abuse in convents

When young nuns at a convent in Eastern Europe told their Mother Superior that a priest had tried to molest them, she retorted that it was probably their fault for "provoking him". When African nuns in Minnesota asked why it was always they who had to shovel snow they were told it was because...

news.yahoo.com

I know not all convents are like this, but this is certainly...sad and disturbing.

Yes, it is. At the same time it needs to be understood that religious life is very different from secular life and Diocesan priesthood.

The role of those in religious life in the Church is not analogous to other roles. For many religious, doing "menial" labor like cooking, cleaning, shoveling, etc, is part and parcel of the whole point behind joining religious life. When they joined whatever order they joined, it isn't like they didn't know what they were getting themselves into when they professed "final vows." If they had a problem with the nature of religious life, no one put a gun to their heads and told them they had to stay.

Religious take three vows: poverty, chastity and obedience. They live life "in common." In other words, their life is communal. Those in religious life do not get paid precisely becasue of the vow of poverty. But all their needs are provided. The way the vow of poverty is lived is going to depend on the order. Some orders live the vow more radically than others. Diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty, nor do they live "in common." They are known as "secular priests" precisely because they live and work in the world and among the world. They get paid like everyone else, and like Protestant ministers. Though what they get paid compared to their counterparts in Protestantism is relatively low. But there are "religious order priests" who take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience and would live like anyone else in religious life.

Thus, the nature of the life and role of those in religious life is different and specific to the order.

None of this justifies abuse of those in religious life or racism however.

 

[balshan]

Yes, it is. At the same time it needs to be understood that religious life is very different from secular life and Diocesan priesthood.

The role of those in religious life in the Church is not analogous to other roles. For many religious, doing "menial" labor like cooking, cleaning, shoveling, etc, is part and parcel of the whole point behind joining religious life. When they joined whatever order they joined, it isn't like they didn't know what they were getting themselves into when they professed "final vows." If they had a problem with the nature of religious life, no one put a gun to their heads and told them they had to stay.

Religious take three vows: poverty, chastity and obedience. They live life "in common." In other words, their life is communal. Those in religious life do not get paid precisely becasue of the vow of poverty. But all their needs are provided. The way the vow of poverty is lived is going to depend on the order. Some orders live the vow more radically than others. Diocesan priests do not take a vow of poverty, nor do they live "in common." They are known as "secular priests" precisely because they live and work in the world and among the world. They get paid like everyone else, and like Protestant ministers. Though what they get paid compared to their counterparts in Protestantism is relatively low. But there are "religious order priests" who take the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience and would live like anyone else in religious life.

Thus, the nature of the life and role of those in religious life is different and specific to the order.

None of this justifies abuse of those in religious life or racism however.

OH what a load of hogwash. Justifying the abuse once again because they live a different life. Really I thought they were married to Jesus and therefore they would not abuse others no matter what those vows are.