Salvation by Grace Through Faith

If you are saved by grace and not of works, how can ones works be the cause of forgiveness of ones sins?
Saxon, that is a great question - 'how can ones works be the cause of forgiveness of ones sins? " so I'd like to use a bit of scripture - there are many examples but pulling a quote dump of the many sources can take away from the point being made - if more are needed then I can add them one at a time. So one example is in Luke 7:38 where an un-named female who is a sinner of many sins. She wept and washed our Savior's feet and anointed Him with oil - and Christ said: "Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little." (see Luke 7:47)
The question to ponder- was it her actions that Jesus forgave all her sins? Or just her love. She clearly recognized our Savior and she acted according to that recognition. I ask myself...had Jesus not said a word...would her sins still have been forgiven at that moment? It was certainly some act of faith that stirred her works... she clearly had heard of Jesus and I feel faith had stirred in her..possibly for some time...yet her sins were not forgiven until that moment of what she did and Jesus proclaimed her forgiveness. This it appears to me anyway, that Faith was present...and she acted on that which in this case Jesus gave forgiveness.
 
God is Sovereign and can save who he pleases and we often go through fire, and trials before we are saved. Fear of death doesn't save you but God does so it will be one or the other..
Correct - I too agree that God's Grace is necessary. By 'death-bed' conversions I am only pointing out how in many cases there were well known atheists whom, on their drawing near their end, have turned to the one God they never knew - this in no way means they professed and converted and were forgiven and saved ... Grace needs to be present for that last part "saved". in my opinion anyway
 

Saxon

Active member
Saxon, that is a great question - 'how can ones works be the cause of forgiveness of ones sins? " so I'd like to use a bit of scripture - there are many examples but pulling a quote dump of the many sources can take away from the point being made - if more are needed then I can add them one at a time. So one example is in Luke 7:38 where an un-named female who is a sinner of many sins. She wept and washed our Savior's feet and anointed Him with oil - and Christ said: "Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little." (see Luke 7:47)
The question to ponder- was it her actions that Jesus forgave all her sins? Or just her love. She clearly recognized our Savior and she acted according to that recognition. I ask myself...had Jesus not said a word...would her sins still have been forgiven at that moment? It was certainly some act of faith that stirred her works... she clearly had heard of Jesus and I feel faith had stirred in her..possibly for some time...yet her sins were not forgiven until that moment of what she did and Jesus proclaimed her forgiveness. This it appears to me anyway, that Faith was present...and she acted on that which in this case Jesus gave forgiveness.
Jesus was responding to her faith, an act that she did because faith drove her to it. Faith always requires an action to follow it or the faith would be to no avail. James said that faith without works is dead. We are saved by grace through faith. That is the way it always is.
 
Jesus was responding to her faith, an act that she did because faith drove her to it. Faith always requires an action to follow it or the faith would be to no avail. James said that faith without works is dead. We are saved by grace through faith. That is the way it always is.
I'd like to think that too.....(Faith always requires an action to follow it)....however, the good thief who died on his cross next to Jesus only professed...no real 'action' there. But here we have clear scripture that offers forgiveness after the act. That's not to say she would not have been forgiven anyway...as she clearly had faith/love in/of our Savior... we can't try to read into scripture what we want to. We certainly can ask the critical questions about what if ... but then that is hypothetical...and only leads to hypothetical answers....like what I did previously.... what if she never anointed Christ with her tears or oil but still held her faith....luckily we don't need to wonder... since she did act and was forgiven.
Just so I am not reading you wrong Saxon.... are you saying that there was no need for her act at all... Jesus had already forgiven her past sins before he even arrived at Simon's house? or what were the exact sequence of events that her sins were forgiven.
I think we are 'thinking' the same things here.... personally I believe .... I have faith.... and my faith is not based on my works...rather my works express my faith. I'm not saying one can't have one without the other...there are edge situations where it is true that one may not have the faith but yet are saved through God's Grace....and there are clear examples of a lack of works by faithful - still all need God's Grace for salvation
 

Saxon

Active member
I'd like to think that too.....(Faith always requires an action to follow it)....however, the good thief who died on his cross next to Jesus only professed...no real 'action' there. But here we have clear scripture that offers forgiveness after the act. That's not to say she would not have been forgiven anyway...as she clearly had faith/love in/of our Savior... we can't try to read into scripture what we want to. We certainly can ask the critical questions about what if ... but then that is hypothetical...and only leads to hypothetical answers....like what I did previously.... what if she never anointed Christ with her tears or oil but still held her faith....luckily we don't need to wonder... since she did act and was forgiven.
The thief had a real action in that he, because of faith, asked for Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom. Actions are not always physical, they can be verbal especially if you are being crucified. Save by grace through faith.
Just so I am not reading you wrong Saxon.... are you saying that there was no need for her act at all... Jesus had already forgiven her past sins before he even arrived at Simon's house? or what were the exact sequence of events that her sins were forgiven.
If her faith was fulfilled when an act that corresponded to her faith had to be done. She wasn't saved by the act but by grace through the faith that inspired the act.
I think we are 'thinking' the same things here.... personally I believe .... I have faith.... and my faith is not based on my works...rather my works express my faith. I'm not saying one can't have one without the other...there are edge situations where it is true that one may not have the faith but yet are saved through God's Grace....and there are clear examples of a lack of works by faithful - still all need God's Grace for salvation
I think that we are on the same track. I know from Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that God, by his grace, is the only factor in our salvation and faith in Christ is why God chooses to save us. I believe that there is no other way.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
The thief had a real action in that he, because of faith, asked for Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom. Actions are not always physical, they can be verbal especially if you are being crucified. Save by grace through faith.

If her faith was fulfilled when an act that corresponded to her faith had to be done. She wasn't saved by the act but by grace through the faith that inspired the act.

I think that we are on the same track. I know from Ephesians 2:8 and 9 that God, by his grace, is the only factor in our salvation and faith in Christ is why God chooses to save us. I believe that there is no other way.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
So we do agree by God's Grace we are saved. - I agree that the Good Thief's profession / recognition of Jesus is a profession of faith, however his crucifixion is not..that was not really his choice to 'act' ...but I get it that if one is 'being' crucified then are stirred in ways I could not comprehend.
I do not however agree with the comment that "Faith always requires an action to follow it"...if you believe that then you are 100% always tying faith to works - and that is no necessarily the case. Your works can earn you to lose your salvation too.(in my opinion)
 

Saxon

Active member
So we do agree by God's Grace we are saved. - I agree that the Good Thief's profession / recognition of Jesus is a profession of faith, however his crucifixion is not..that was not really his choice to 'act' ...but I get it that if one is 'being' crucified then are stirred in ways I could not comprehend.
I do not however agree with the comment that "Faith always requires an action to follow it"...if you believe that then you are 100% always tying faith to works - and that is no necessarily the case. Your works can earn you to lose your salvation too.(in my opinion)
James 2:14-20
Authorized (King James) Version
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is telling us that if we have faith we need to use that faith, works. If we stick to what the Bible is saying we find that we are saved by grace through faith. . All the faith that we discussed was always followed by an action that was related to the faith. The thief had faith that if he asked Jesus to remember him, he would. If he did not actually do the asking. nothing would have changed for him.

It seems to me that most people think that faith is like a magic incantation that if you muster up enough faith then what you want will happen. Jesus said faith the size of a mustard seed would result in a mountain being moved. A mustard seed is small compared to a peach seed so faith doesn't rely on size but in what you place your faith.. As in the above scripture if you don't act on your faith nothing is going to happen faith stirs a person to action, it does not cause the action to happen except by the person using their faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
James 2:14-20
Authorized (King James) Version
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is telling us that if we have faith we need to use that faith, works. If we stick to what the Bible is saying we find that we are saved by grace through faith. . All the faith that we discussed was always followed by an action that was related to the faith. The thief had faith that if he asked Jesus to remember him, he would. If he did not actually do the asking. nothing would have changed for him.

It seems to me that most people think that faith is like a magic incantation that if you muster up enough faith then what you want will happen. Jesus said faith the size of a mustard seed would result in a mountain being moved. A mustard seed is small compared to a peach seed so faith doesn't rely on size but in what you place your faith.. As in the above scripture if you don't act on your faith nothing is going to happen faith stirs a person to action, it does not cause the action to happen except by the person using their faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
So yes - that was my point about the sinner who anointed Christ... for that, it appeared that she was forgiven her sins. I too feel personally that if one does have faith..they are more likely to act on their faith in ways that affirm their faith... unfortunately many do not..or act in poor ways that seems to affirm either a lack of faith or a mis-understanding of faith. I have a close cousin who claims she is saved by her faith and faith alone and cannot lose her salvation.... I am happy for her but I pray for her often to snap out of that falsehood.
I still don't agree with the good thief example you gave... since we are now dipping into the what if (...' if he did not actually do the asking, nothing would have changed for him.' ).... I believe he did not need to ask, he just needed to believe... he could of just made a profession of acknowledgement that Jesus was the Messiah...but to do so he need the realization first...if the good thief was a mute... he still would of been saved as God searches the soul and knows.
 

Saxon

Active member
So yes - that was my point about the sinner who anointed Christ... for that, it appeared that she was forgiven her sins. I too feel personally that if one does have faith..they are more likely to act on their faith in ways that affirm their faith... unfortunately many do not..or act in poor ways that seems to affirm either a lack of faith or a mis-understanding of faith. I have a close cousin who claims she is saved by her faith and faith alone and cannot lose her salvation.... I am happy for her but I pray for her often to snap out of that falsehood.
I, also believe OSAS is a spiritual death trap. It is not scriptural.
I still don't agree with the good thief example you gave... since we are now dipping into the what if (...' if he did not actually do the asking, nothing would have changed for him.' ).... I believe he did not need to ask, he just needed to believe... he could of just made a profession of acknowledgement that Jesus was the Messiah...but to do so he need the realization first...if the good thief was a mute... he still would of been saved as God searches the soul and knows.
I don't see any "what ifs" as the text states that he did ask. Why look for trouble where there is no trouble?
 
I, also believe OSAS is a spiritual death trap. It is not scriptural.

I don't see any "what ifs" as the text states that he did ask. Why look for trouble where there is no trouble?
Took me a while to figure out what OSAS is... yes it certainly an drive the weak in faith to falsely believe they are saved only through their faith. And once saved ..always saved...hmm i wonder if they would ever admit that if they blasphemed the HS if they would still be saved? yeah...i get it... 'I would never do that since my faith is true.....' yeah yeah... i get it.... yet if anyone who claims they are OSAS and they then utter that blasphemy...then they are not saved ....yeah yeah I get it the argument then turns to 'well they were never really saved then'.... hmmm ok.. so what makes anyone think that they are saved when clearly one can't tell? God's Good Grace is key.

As for not seeing any "what ifs"..... i was referring to the Good Thief ..and when you did your 'what if' : ...' if he did not actually do the asking, nothing would have changed for him.' which i disagreed with not looking for trouble at all just putting a bit of light on things.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
As for not seeing any "what ifs"..... i was referring to the Good Thief ..and when you did your 'what if' : ...' if he did not actually do the asking, nothing would have changed for him.' which i disagreed with not looking for trouble at all just putting a bit of light on things.
The thief expressed his belief in Jesus. If he didn't believe, why would he say to remember him when You comes into His kingdom.

Obviously, since Jesus said to him: And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
 
The thief expressed his belief in Jesus. If he didn't believe, why would he say to remember him when You comes into His kingdom.

Obviously, since Jesus said to him: And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
That was my whole point in pointing out Saxon's 'What if' comment....'if he did not actually do the asking'...Saxon thinks that nothing would have happened to the good thief.... I am not as certain about that. Since one can not always judge one by what they don't say or don't do. God knows our hearts and through God's grace we will be justly judged.
 
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